the story....


[quote]BAKU (AFP) - Police broke up a banned anti-government rally in Azerbaijan, arresting and beating dozens of protestors as part of a crackdown on the opposition linked to the opening of a major US-backed oil pipeline.

For hours, the streets of Baku became a tangle of protesters and baton-wielding riot police amid the traffic.

No figure was available for the number of injured, but an AFP reporter saw police flogging several protestors with rubber batons, knocking at least one man unconscious and beating a reporter for the daily Zerkalo newspaper.
[/quote]

Where is the neocon outrage at this? Another example how human rights, freedom and democracy is not the primary motivating factor. Not even close to the primary motivating factor.

Oil interests are at stake. Thats the motivating factor. This would be the same oil pipeline that had Gov. Bush negotiating with the Taliban, btw.


We ARE condemnning it, at least. {quote]The embassy joined the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in calling for the restoration of the right of free assembly in Azerbaijan.[/quote]

But we could be doing more - afterall, we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars ostensibly to make Iraq a democracy. How far could 1 billion dollars, well spent, go to insuring Azerbaijann's elections go smoothly? Of course, democracy has nothing to do with it, and the billion dollars to to high a price to spend to make sure Azerbaijann becomes a functioning democracy.

Bush didnt negotiate with the Taliban for a pipeline. This pipeline doesnt involve Afghanistan. It goes thru Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia and Turkey.
Its a project of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), primarily a European organization and its financed by the World Bank’s International Finance Corporation and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. British Petroleum built the pipeline. MARK

[quote=expat,May 22 2005, 01:36 AM]
the story....
Where is the neocon outrage at this? Another example how human rights, freedom and democracy is not the primary motivating factor. Not even close to the primary motivating factor.

Oil interests are at stake. Thats the motivating factor. This would be the same oil pipeline that had Gov. Bush negotiating with the Taliban, btw.
We ARE condemnning it, at least. {quote]The embassy joined the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in calling for the restoration of the right of free assembly in Azerbaijan.[/quote]

But we could be doing more - afterall, we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars ostensibly to make Iraq a democracy. How far could 1 billion dollars, well spent, go to insuring Azerbaijann's elections go smoothly? Of course, democracy has nothing to do with it, and the billion dollars to to high a price to spend to make sure Azerbaijann becomes a functioning democracy.

[/quote]

We condenmed it. What do you mean where is the NeoCon outrage? The United States is calling for the restoration of the right of Free Assembly in Azerbaijan.

So first you post the article. Then you mention that the United States is condeming Azerbaijan's government, then you ask, in an outraged manner, why the NeoCons in the US government are not condeming Azerbaijan's government.

My bad, then- I assumed is was the same one - I guess the one I'm thinking of goes the opposite direction.

Well, my point being that "outrage" is not the same as The Embassy joining European countries in saying "you guys should not beat up people."

It is a shadow compared to the feigned outrage over Saddam's human rights abuses ("We're talking about someone who gassed his own people!") that justified the War.

My point is, again, IF protecting human rights was even a notable motivating factor, then we would be doing more than having the Embassy join European countries in weak, toothless criticism.

Saddam Hussein was responsible for the deaths of almost 3.5 million innocents.

This guy beat up protesters.

The outrage fits the well, outrage.

When, exactly did he kill all these people? How many were in Iran at the time? Who were we giving money to? That "criticism" is proving my point.

Besides, We are talking about a group being pro-democracy, right?


My point is, again, IF protecting human rights was even a notable motivating factor, then we would be doing more. We could make it more of an issue. We don't need to invde to do that.

WHAT DO YOU WANT BUSH TO DO? You keep saying "do more" MORE WHAT??!!
It was probably Bush's May 10th speech in Georgia that inspired the protestors. They marched holding portraits of George Bush. And you want to condemn him.
MARK

approx 1.5 million starved to death as a result of UN sanctions.

about another 1.5 mil from his various political purges, genocidal rampages, et cetera.

Approx about another .5 mil as a result of the various wars he pursued.

Clearly worse than beating up a handful of protesters.

never mind beating ! soon they'll be free and democratic and rich with money earned for oil they'lll start to pump to the west ! they'll enjoy free market and other benefits of capitalism too ! after all - becoming free has a price, right ?

Strawmen are the best that you can do. Unsurprising.

Where the hell did Expat go? He provides interesting discussion. Only leftist on these boards who does at that!

Naive concept of freedom and Democracy. Azerbaijan, like all the former Soviet Republics know nothing other than the old command economy. Likely the land is state owned, therefore the oil and benefit of the pipeline is owned by the state. Public ownership of resources isnt necessarily detrimental if you have good governance that puts the profits into benefit for the public. Something else Azerbaijan is likely missing. 75% of the people voted for President ALIYEV, merely a step in Democracy, and Democracy is merely a step on the way to a better life for the people of Azerbaijan. On the other hand, they are also free to avoid economic reform, embrace socialism and build that utopian society.
MARK

awwwww I wub yoo too! Acually, I quite enjoy our discussions, too.

I actually spend far more time on here than I should - I go to internet cafes as I don't have internet at home, and I can't always get on-line regularly.




Anyways -


I didn't ask why we were not condemning it - I asked why we weren't doing more. The reason is that Democracy is in the US's interests in all cases, except when it isn't.

Democracy is in the US' interests in mostly all cases. But it is not always in our interests to expend lives and money for that demcracy.

Besides the Uzbek revolution is aimed at establishing an Islamist state and restoring the Caliphate, not bringing democracy.

why not a Caliphat of love? perhaps it is their sort of Democracy. or you wanna impose on them only your own - which is exactly as expat said - when it is in your interests.

there are many different kinds of democracy:


and although diverse in their form of it, democratic states are a lot actually - icluding Azerbajan and Uzbekistan.

so, it is not possible to impose to other countries, or force them, one particular form of Democracy. even in the attempts to create a Global Democracy - I think it'd rather be a conglomerate of verious forms of democratic states instead of one unified one.

Apparently you do not understand that the Caliphate is by definition an Absolute Monarch with all Muslims everywhere as his subject, and that the direct role of Caliphate is to expand the rule of the Islamic Empire.

Afghanistan under the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Nigeria all applied Islamic law. Seems to be an absence of love. Are you familiar with the laws of the Shariah? Death for apostates, severing of criminals limbs and all of that. Islam takes away the authority of man to legislate for themselves and gives it back to Allah. He has written all the legislation. their "sort" has nothing to do with Democracy MARK

“Allah has promised to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that of a certainty, He will cause them to accede to power on earth, as He granted it to those before them, that He will establish in authority their Deen which he has chosen for them, and that He will change (their state) after the fear in which they lived, to one of security and peace: They will worship Me (alone) and not ascribe powers to any beside Me” [TMQ 24: 55].

Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) is The Only Legislator
In order to organize societies as well as providing a comprehensive system to satisfy human needs, Man has wrongly assumed the role of the legislator.
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?...ID=7589&TagID=1

Caliphate of Love ... that is pretty funny.

Of course, you are relying on Karimov's evidence and discounting any other possible alternative ... You know there are quite a few people trying to establish an Islamic Fundamentalist gov't, if not a Caliphate, in Iraq, too.

No, Im relying on the statement of the rebel leader, remember-

"We will be building an Islamic state here in accordance with the Koran," rebel leader Bakhtiyor Rakhimov said in Korasuv, a town of 20,000.

Hes the guy who demonstrated for the reporters, thrusting his dagger forward and upward explaining that the government couldnt dodge his dagger thrusted between their ribs. Just spreading the LUV Islamic style.

I think only a very small minority would support a Caliphate in Iraq. Shiites are the majority of Iraqis. Sistanni seems to be the Ayatohlla with the most popular support. He has always opposed an Iranian type government and has always advocated a separation of religon and government. Except for a small fundamentalist portion of the Kurdish population they seem to be pretty secular. The Sunnis who have been in power for decades never seemed to advocate for a Fundamentalist government. Now the foriegn Sunni presence, 100% behind the idea of a Taliban like regime, probably even would declare Baghdad the seat of the new Islamic Caliphate. Not an easy claim to make from Afghanistan or Nigeria MARK

The rebel leader? Ummmmm - who is that? The news reports I heard had a peaceful protest that turned into an ijmpromptu strming of an armory to free the businessmen who were gonna get tortured and killed. This snowballed into a rebellion.

You want me to judge all conservatives by GOP4Life sayig that hunting down illegal immigrants with guns is a good thing? Not arresting them, btw.

The news reports I've read show that while the Caliphate guys took the opportunity, the people en masse want a democracy.

THe people en masse wanted a democracy in Russia.

Lenin wouldn't have any of that.

The situation is far too volatile and dangerous for the US to get bogged down in it.

Except for small fundamentalist Kurdish population? WTF? The Kurds want their own country, which they ain't gonna get any time soon because it would destabilize neighboring countries, like Turkey.

The *foreign Sunni* presense advocating a taliban like regime? What planet are you on? oh yeah - Planet Fox where the sun is either Left or Right. Unfortunately, you are Wrong.

The Shiites are the fundies, man. the Sunnis are far more moderate than the Shiites, religiously. Iran is predominately Shiite, incidentally.
The Sunnis are said to be "Saddam loyalists" and that is why they are fighting.

The Kurds have been very cooperative with the U.S in realizing that the dream of an independent Kurdistan is unlikely to be realized and in choosing to work with Iraq's New and Democratic Government.

In return, the Kurdish militias have not been dismantled and the Kurds are enjoying a great deal of autonomy.

I'm glad you agree we should get our military bases out of there, and stop showing implicit support for Karimov...

In other wods, we are involved already.