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Boon Mee
Newsweek put U.S. flag
in trash on foreign cover
New allegations of anti-Americanism hit mag reeling from Quran scandal.



With Newsweek still reeling from its forced retraction of the Quran-in-the-toilet story, the magazine is now under fire for publishing what some see as staunchly anti-American covers in foreign editions.

For instance, while a Japanese edition of Newsweek dated Feb. 2 published a cover story featuring an American flag in a trash can under the headline, "The day America died," and the international edition featured a photo of President Bush with the headline, "America Leads ... But Is Anyone Following?," the U.S. edition cover story was an "Oscar Confidential" featuring Hilary Swank, Jamie Foxx and Leonardo DiCaprio.

Somebody outa shoot those editors... ph34r.gif
.
bob
And some of these numbskulls wonder why everyone hates America now. We have the foreign press to thank. Thank you! 033.gif
dkward2
not going to buy any Newsweek's. Not that I buy them now, but I definitely won’t in the future. Don't want my money supporting this BS.
dixon76710
QUOTE (bob @ May 23 2005, 08:17 AM)
And some of these numbskulls wonder why everyone hates America now. We have the foreign press to thank. Thank you! 033.gif
*



Sad part is that it is American Press going out to foreign countries. Not to suprising when they hire a Muslim like Fareed Zakaria for its editor. MARK
Ikonoclastia
It sounds like you are suggesting that Newsweek censor its editors and journalists. Isn't that the opposite of what America has traditionally been thought to stand for, freedom?.

Patriotism should never influence journalism to the extent that it dictates what can and cannot be printed. Unless of course you want a government controlled media like that which exists in communist China or the intellectual repressiveness of Al Queda.

Do you really want that? Or do you think that populations should be the regulators and vote with their wallets instead. I personally prefer the latter even if it means I have to put up with the occasional annoying conservative splurge of quasi-nazism entering my conscious before I can avert my eyes.

In short, if you don't like it, don't look. But don't try to dictate what others can read.

Ikonoclastiafv
Ben-T
I'm sorry, who here suggested that the US federal government, or any US state government, should impose on Newsweek's right to free press?

By my count 0. Thanks for the baseless allegations.
Nomad
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 23 2005, 04:46 PM)
It sounds like you are suggesting that Newsweek censor its editors and journalists.  Isn't that the opposite of what America has traditionally been thought to stand for, freedom?. 

Patriotism should never influence journalism to the extent that it dictates what can and cannot be printed.  Unless of course you want a government controlled media like that which exists in communist China or the intellectual repressiveness of Al Queda. 

Do you really want that? Or do you think that populations should be the regulators and vote with their wallets instead.  I personally prefer the latter even if it means I have to put up with the occasional annoying conservative splurge of quasi-nazism entering my conscious before I can avert my eyes.

In short, if you don't like it, don't look.  But don't try to dictate what others can read.

Ikonoclastiafv
*


What ever happened to RESPONSIBLE journalism. Would the following headlines be OK with you?

GWB urinates on the Koran.
John Howard divorces wife to marry Elton John.
New Zobgy poll indicates 78% of Americans want jihad against muslims.


Sure let these a$$wipes print whatever they want and to hell with the consequenses. People killed as a result of fictional news? Thats OK too. An added bonus via a generated news story.
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Ben-T @ May 23 2005, 10:02 PM)
I'm sorry, who here suggested that the US federal government, or any US state government, should impose on Newsweek's right to free press?

By my count 0. Thanks for the baseless allegations.
*

Nobody here suggested that you were asking for the US federal government, or any US state government, to impose on Newsweeks right to free press. I clearly said in my first paragraph that - "It sounds like you are suggesting that Newsweek censor its editors and journalists."

Although you did clearly say that somebody should shoot them.

My point was that the responses to this freespeech were clearly negative and somewhat suggestive of not allowing Newsweek to print what it wants either by shooting them or more realistically, not employing editors that would print articles that put the US in a bad light and specifically not employing Muslims as editors.

In light of those 'suggestions' one could easily draw a comparison to a type of media similiar to China's.

QUOTE (Boon Mee @ May 23 2005, 11:04 AM)
*snip*

Somebody outa shoot those editors... ph34r.gif .
*

Threat of violence.


QUOTE (bob @ May 23 2005, 11:17 AM)
And some of these numbskulls wonder why everyone hates America now. We have the foreign press to thank. Thank you! 033.gif
*

Outrage. (PS I don't think we all hate you because of some magazines, its most probably all the killing and bombing and hurting that your doing to the rest of the world huh.gif ).


QUOTE (dkward2 @ May 23 2005, 11:35 AM)
not going to buy any Newsweek's.  Not that I buy them now, but I definitely won’t in the future.  Don't want my money supporting this BS.
*

And sanctions. This is the only appropriate response but still very negative. It might be more valid but only if you first found out the symbolism regarding the flag in the trash. Perhaps the flag in the trash is indicative of others feelings toward the US rather then the magazines feelings toward the US? If so its an appropriate picture no and not disrespectful at all?

Ikonoclastia
dixon76710
Newsweek has the "Freedom" to ba as sad as they want, for as long as they want. MARK
Nomad
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 23 2005, 07:26 PM)
Outrage. (PS I don't think we all hate you because of some magazines, its most probably all the killing and bombing and hurting that your doing to the rest of the world huh.gif ).
Ikonoclastia
*


Oh now that's rich. laugh.gif 016.gif 017.gif popcorn.gif
Boh Bpen Yang
QUOTE
Outrage. (PS I don't think we all hate you because of some magazines, its most probably all the killing and bombing and hurting that your doing to the rest of the world  ).

QUOTE (Nomad @ May 24 2005, 03:03 AM)
Oh now that's rich. laugh.gif  016.gif  017.gif  popcorn.gif
*


How many Australians were killed in the Bali Disco bombing? What horrible attrocities had they committed to deserve that? Is that just an "Oh well" to you? What should be done, live and let die? Post incident police action and the occasional prevention of a plot to destroy life and property were never going to stop what was going on. A new tactic had to be taken.

the rest of the world? dry.gif come on 033.gif That's such an extreme exageration it transcends fantasy.028.gif popcorn.gif
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Boh Bpen Yang @ May 24 2005, 03:58 AM)
How many Australians were killed in the Bali Disco bombing?  Is that just an "Oh well" to you?  What should be done, live and let die?  Police action was never going to stop what was going on.  A new tactic had to be taken.

the rest of the world  dry.gif popcorn.gif
*

Yeah your right I guess.

Next week I think I'm going to take a backpacking trip through Indonesia and then I'm jetting off to Iraq for a sand safari. I will be taking less precautions then I would have before the latest Afghanistan / Iraq wars because its so much safer now with the new tactics and all.

Yeah... except, hold on, they're chopping our heads off over there now aren't they??111eleventyone. Go new tactic go!!

Ikonoclastia
Boh Bpen Yang
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 24 2005, 08:07 AM)
Yeah your right I guess.

Next week I think I'm going to take a backpacking trip through Indonesia and then I'm jetting off to Iraq for a sand safari.  I will be taking less precautions then I would have before the latest Afghanistan / Iraq wars because its so much safer now with the new tactics and all.

Yeah... except, hold on, they're chopping our heads off over there now aren't they??111eleventyone. Go new tactic go!!

Ikonoclastia
*


I have to give it to you you have a different approach to trying to make a point. Indonesia is still pretty cool but you can get hurt there. Lots of people are still going to Iraq.. of course it is a war zone not a medicinal bath that leaves one clean and refreshed after just one application. IT'S A WAR!!! It's not supposed to be pretty. It's not perceived to be a walk in the park. But, after it's over it is supposed to be safer to walk in the park again. It's not over.
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Boh Bpen Yang @ May 24 2005, 04:19 AM)
I have to give it to you you have a different approach to trying to make a point.  Indonesia is still pretty cool but you can get hurt there.  Lots of people are still going to Iraq.. of course it is a war zone not a medicinal bath that leaves one clean and refreshed after just one application.  IT'S A WAR!!!  It's not supposed to be pretty.  It's not perceived to be a walk in the park.  But, after it's over it is supposed to be safer to walk in the park again.  It's not over.
*

Last post for the night cause I'm tired.

You know the Isreali / Palestinian war began in 1947 when the state of Israel was created. They have been at war now for over 60 years and there is no end in sight. I very much doubt we will see one in before our deaths.

Likewise now that the US has played what is widely perceived as an anti muslim / arab card, I cannot see a resolution coming about without the US and the muslim community and the 'terrorists' all conceeding the unconceedable. I doubt we will ever see an end to what started in 2002 in Iraq.

Lets just wait till Iran develops its nuclear weapons (if Israel doesn't preemptively strike them with its own nukes).

Ikonoclastiafv
Ben-T
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 23 2005, 07:26 PM)
Nobody here suggested that you were asking for the US federal government, or any US state government, to impose on Newsweeks right to free press.  I clearly said in my first paragraph that - "It sounds like you are suggesting that Newsweek censor its editors and journalists."

Although you did clearly say that somebody should shoot them.

My point was that the responses to this freespeech were clearly negative and somewhat suggestive of not allowing Newsweek to print what it wants either by shooting them or more realistically, not employing editors that would print articles that put the US in a bad light and specifically not employing Muslims as editors.



This is one of the more stinky piles of bullshit I have encountered.

People are allowed to not like what Newsweek says, I don't know if this is new to you, because yes, we have freedom of speech. Newsweek is FREE to say whatever they want, and as a result of that, they are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of their speech. Not everybody will like what they say, especially when what they say results in the deahts of 17 people and the story turns out to be false.

For you to suggest that we want a media reminiscent of China's state controlled one is ludicrous. People are allowed to criticize Newsweek. Thanks to the free market society we live in, people are allowed to boycott Newsweek should they so desire. Or do YOU have a problem with Free Speech?
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Ben-T @ May 24 2005, 09:40 AM)
This is one of the more stinky piles of bullshit I have encountered.

People are allowed to not like what Newsweek says, I don't know if this is new to you, because yes, we have freedom of speech. Newsweek is FREE to say whatever they want, and as a result of that, they are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of their speech. Not everybody will like what they say, especially when what they say results in the deahts of 17 people and the story turns out to be false.

For you to suggest that we want a media reminiscent of China's state controlled one is ludicrous. People are allowed to criticize Newsweek. Thanks to the free market society we live in, people are allowed to boycott Newsweek should they so desire. Or do YOU have a problem with Free Speech?
*

I don't believe the covers in question resulted in the deaths of 17 people. And no I'm not the one who has a problem with free speech and also not the one suggesting people be shot for printing their opinions or silly flags in garbage bins.

A flag is a mere symbol, what it symbolizes is important, the flag is mere cloth and wood.

Something to consider.

Ikonoclastia
Ben-T
I do believe it is clear which story I was alluding to when I mentioned 17 deaths.
Razin
why to be so outraged ? after all - NW is a by-product of freedom of speech and free market. they simply have done their marketing well. free market includes the right for any company to have branch around the world, right? and so, to sell the stuff which is good for sale in particular areas. just like ice-drinks and sleeveless cloth in tropical countries instead of hot ones elsewhere where the climate is different ! smile.gif why to be so touchy about ethics and moralities - free market ! and business is amoral after all, right? as long as money can be made - does it matter if some don't like the stuff sold ?

P.S. - but I like and agree with NW's american issue cover - "....WHo follows?" - that is a good Q, which perhaps should be more attended then the first part - "America leads"

Ben-T - funny comment !

QUOTE (Ben-T @ May 24 2005, 01:40 PM)
This is one of the more stinky piles of bullshit I have encountered.
*




wow! you have some sort of a system to grade to level of stikiness of BS ? laugh.gif

and sounds like you've got a lot of experience - since you speak in relative and comparative terms ?

is it your main profession - to sniff it around and measure the stench ? wink.gif

perhaps you could try to change the attitude - to try look into something less smelly than conctantly concetrating on finding - "where is BS" - huh ? positive "bee-vision" (honey or nectar seeking) instead of "fly-vision" (BS seeking) ....
Ben-T
I assure you Razin, I don't actively look for it, but hanging around Political Left-Wingers I tend to encounter it quite a bit.
Razin
or perhaps brown-nosing rightists adds the smell ? wink.gif
ustrader
popcorn.gif ohmy.gif

Gentlemen, should we expect any less or any more from our friends at Newsweek o the La and NY Times?

I think not. As one of those guys in opposition said, don't like it, don't read it. They are not going to stop. Nor are the similar yokes overseas.

This, war on terror, is as much a war of propaganda as was Vietnam. The difference, as I see it, is the quality and quantity of the opposition is far less the equal.

The media and politicians understand one thing very well. It is the vote that counts be it the voter or the dollar.

In Business they have a marketing rule of thumb. One angry determined and dissatisfied customer will effect, in bad will, 100 other customers or potential customers, by merely the word of mouth of their dissatisfaction.

Attack !Attack! with unrelenting verosity the numerator of the yoke and it will crumble!

QUOTE
Next week I think I'm going to take a backpacking trip through Indonesia and then I'm jetting off to Iraq for a sand safari. I will be taking less precautions then I would have before the latest Afghanistan / Iraq wars because its so much safer now with the new tactics and all.


Oh you devil you, promise and more promise, all so empty, yet we can only hope were true. 026.gif popcorn.gif wink.gif

That is all!
Taste o Truth
You're going to be left with nothing but Fox News and Pentagon press releases at the rate you're going.

If you knew how to read the news critically and intelligently you wouldn't have these problems.
Boh Bpen Yang
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 24 2005, 08:43 AM)
Likewise now that the US has played what is widely perceived as an anti muslim / arab card, I cannot see a resolution coming about without the US and the muslim community and the 'terrorists' all conceeding the unconceedable.  I doubt we will ever see an end to what started in 2002 in Iraq.

Ikonoclastiafv
*


Now we are talking more about the Topic of the Thread.

'Perceived as'---- but not. Why?

What are the 'terrorists' really fighting about? It certainly isn't the right to be Muslim and practice the faith of Islam. The USA has over 6,000,000 practicing Muslims. Islam is the fastest growing religion in that country. Nothing to fight about there. Ney I say. The money hungry media wants to sell sell SELL!!! And if that costs a few thousand lives so be it.
I believe the terrorists are fighting to control the lives of all the people in the region (and the great wealth that spews from the ground there) as has been done for a very long time (with the support of western powers some of which wish that to continue). When the media feeds a frenzy that is not supported by the truth it can not stand, but can cause great despair and hardship for those who follow that false cause.

Shame on them. They can say whatever they want to say but they can't outright lie and call it news. This week or any other week.
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Boh Bpen Yang @ May 25 2005, 03:02 AM)
Now we are talking more about the Topic of the Thread.

'Perceived as'---- but not.  Why?

What are the 'terrorists' really fighting about? It certainly isn't the right to be Muslim and practice the faith of Islam.  The USA has over 6,000,000 practicing Muslims.  Islam is the fastest growing religion in that country.  Nothing to fight about there.  Ney I say.  The money hungry media wants to sell sell SELL!!!  And if that costs a few thousand lives so be it. 
I believe the terrorists are fighting to control the lives of all the people in the region (and the great wealth that spews from the ground there) as has been done for a very long time (with the support of western powers some of which wish that to continue).  When the media feeds a frenzy that is not supported by the truth it can not stand, but can cause great despair and hardship for those who follow that false cause.

Shame on them.  They can say whatever they want to say but they can't outright lie and call it news. This week or any other week.
*

And here we have the great deception. You asked that question as if there is one single goal that terrorists in their single organization are fighting for. You talk as if Al Queda has the same goals as Hamas or the IRA and seem to believe they're all muslims. Thats niave and silly. Get educated before you lock yourself into boxes on issues please.

Some terrorist Organizations:

Abu Sayyaf Group Philippines
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya Egypt
Al-Qa'ida Afghanistan
Al-Takfir W’al Hijra unknown
Armata Corsa France
Armed Islamic Group Algeria
Aum Shinrikyo Japan
Basque Homeland and Freedom Spain
Chukaku-Ha Japan
Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine Palestinian
Fatah - Revolutionary Council Lebanon
Fatah Tanzim Palestinian
Force 17 Palestinian
Great East Islamic Raiders Front (IBDA-C) Turkey
Hamas Palestinian
Harakat ul-Mujahedin Pakistan
Hizballah Lebanon
Hizb-ul Mujehideen Pakistan
Irish Republican Army Northern Ireland
Jamaat ul-Fuqra Pakistan
Japanese Red Army Japan
Jihad Group Egypt
Kach and Kahane Chai Israel
Kurdistan Worker's Party Turkey
Lashkar-e-Toiba Pakistan
Lautaro Youth Movement Chile
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam Sri Lanka
Loyalist Volunteer Force Northern Ireland
Manuel Rodriquez Patriotic Front Chile
Martyrs of al-Aqsa Palestinian
Moranzanist Patriotic Front Honduras
Moro Islamic Liberation Front Philippines
Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK) Iran
National Liberation Army Colombia Colombia
National Liberation Front of Corsica France
Nestor Paz Zamora Commission (CNPZ) Bolivia
New People's Army Philippines
Palestine Liberation Front Iraq
Palestinian Islamic Jihad Palestinian
Party of Democratic Kampuchea Cambodia
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Palestinian
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command Palestinian
Popular Struggle Front Syria
Qibla and People Against Gangsterism and Drugs South Africa
Real IRA Northern Ireland
Red Army Faction Germany
Red Brigades Italy
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia Colombia
Revolutionary Organization 17 November Greece
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front Turkey
Revolutionary People's Struggle Greece
Sendero Luminoso Peru
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan Pakistan
Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement Peru
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia

Ikonoclastia
Razin
terrorism is just a most popular form of accomplishing certain goals nowdays, mostly big politics and big business, which again are very related.

there is no way simple poor people having enough money to be able to conduct elaborate terrorist acts and make them successfull. they'd rather use those money for their poor families.

so, it is worng to personify terrorism with any particular nation or religion, as some people try nowdays.

terrorism was invented and implemented by mighty ones, and thaught to those who would carry out the tasks. allegedly, Nelson Mandela and Yaser Arafat are 2 of worlds most famous terrorists, according to certain points of view. from other points of view - they are heroes who sacrificed their whole lives and of their followers for some higher goals.

terrorism breeds more terrorism, that's all. what was started in Nicaragua or Afganistan - bears the frutis now. those who were "freedom fighters" later become hunted down as criminals.

so, there is no simple solution to terrorism, if at all there are any solution at all - however it doesn't mean shouldn't be attempts to solve it.

there are fears though that such attempts are not being made truly and properly. coz terrorists play their roles too for those who runs "war on terror" .

alright, I'll speak of Russia now - since I'm being constantly accused of "anti-american" agenda : why despite campaigns in Chechnya the terror acts still continue and innocent people die both in Beslan and even in the Moscow ? some people claim that it is sort of convinient for certain forces/ powers to let those people responcible for those crimes - to be able to continue do such terror acts.
some even say that certain acts might have been done by spec. services ....

same like here in Thailand recent bombings in Hatyai shopping mall and airport. some reporters raise opinions that actually local military has done those acts for certain reasons - not those islamic separatists.


terrorists are usually impersonal and often abstract identity of enemy, and therefore convinient to blame. if previously the enemy was known - like German Nazis - nowdays it is easier to have something done for particular reasons, and blame it on terrorists. like invinsible Osama.

yeah - Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam are also called terrorists. although Tamils there feel it only just to fight the opressors and don't call it a terrorism but a Tamil United Liberation Front - coz of "government organized genocide of Tamils ":

QUOTE
Tens of thousands have died from various events, which has included government organized genocide of Tamils via street riots in the early 80s, retaliations by the LTTE, village-scale slaughters on both sides, government "disappearances", etc. Hundreds of thousands of refugees are displaced internally or have fled to Tamil Nadu and around the world


well, perhaps if Tamils would be helped and protected against genocide - may be they won't start their fighting which eventually is branded as terrorism.
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (Razin @ May 25 2005, 07:11 PM)
terrorism is just a most popular form of accomplishing certain goals nowdays, mostly big politics and big business, which again are very related.

there is no way simple poor people having enough money to be able to conduct elaborate terrorist acts and make them successfull. they'd rather use those money for their poor families.

so, it is worng to personify terrorism with any particular nation or religion, as some people try nowdays.

terrorism was invented and implemented by mighty ones, and thaught to those who would carry out the tasks. allegedly, Nelson Mandela and Yaser Arafat are 2 of worlds most famous terrorists, according to certain points of view. from other points of view - they are heroes who sacrificed their whole lives and of their followers for some higher goals.

terrorism breeds more terrorism, that's all. what was started in Nicaragua or Afganistan - bears the frutis now. those who were "freedom fighters" later become hunted down as criminals.

so, there is no simple solution to terrorism, if at all there are any solution at all - however it  doesn't mean shouldn't be attempts to solve it.

there are fears though that such attempts are not being made truly and properly. coz terrorists play their roles too for those who runs "war on terror" .

alright, I'll speak of Russia now - since I'm being constantly accused of "anti-american" agenda : why despite campaigns in Chechnya the terror acts still continue and innocent people die both in Beslan and even in the Moscow ? some people claim that it is sort of convinient for certain forces/ powers to let those people responcible for those crimes - to be able to continue do such terror acts.
some even say that certain acts might have been done by spec. services ....

same like here in Thailand recent bombings in Hatyai shopping mall and airport. some reporters raise opinions that actually local  military has done those acts for certain reasons - not those islamic separatists.
terrorists are usually impersonal and often abstract identity of enemy, and therefore convinient to blame. if previously the enemy was known - like German Nazis - nowdays it is easier to have something done for particular reasons, and blame it on terrorists. like invinsible Osama.

yeah - Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam are also called terrorists.  although Tamils there feel it only just to fight the opressors and don't call it a terrorism but a Tamil United Liberation Front - coz of "government organized genocide of Tamils ":
well, perhaps if Tamils would be helped and protected against genocide - may be they won't start their fighting which eventually is branded as terrorism.
*

Yes Razin. The war on 'terrorism' is a war of oppression and oppression is a powerful force for the recruitment of more terrorists - Catch 22.

I'm quite certain the Americans know this but they're selling bombs, guns and other weapons at a very accelerated rate so they don't mind the blood too much.

A very convenient way for the rich to tap into the federal funds of the U.S.A and siphon them over to their own bank accounts.

Ikonoclastia
Taste o Truth
Hm... I wonder... will the FBI be forced to retract this?

FBI memo reports Guantanamo guards flushing Koran
http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050525/...tanamo_koran_dc

QUOTE
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An FBI agent wrote in a 2002 document made public on Wednesday that a detainee held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had accused American jailers there of flushing the Koran down a toilet.

The release of the declassified document came the week after the Bush administration denounced as wrong a May 9 Newsweek article that stated U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo had flushed a Koran down a toilet to try to make detainees talk.

The magazine retracted the article, which had triggered protests in Afghanistan in which 16 people died.

The newly released document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, contained a summary of statements made days earlier by a detainee, whose name was redacted, in two interviews with an FBI special agent, whose name also was withheld, at the Guantanamo prison for foreign terrorism suspects.
dixon76710
QUOTE (Taste o Truth @ May 25 2005, 05:05 PM)
Hm... I wonder... will the FBI be forced to retract this?

FBI memo reports Guantanamo guards flushing Koran
http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050525/...tanamo_koran_dc
*



Nobody has ever claimed that American military "had (NOT BEEN) accused" by the prisoners of flushing a Koran. MARK
Razin
ghhh, I know what you mean - but sorry, I'd be rvery reluctant to give such a definition as yours for "war on terrorism". simplty because it would be another generalisation - same as what is or isn't terrorism.

terrorism

QUOTE
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

in Politics

Acts of violence committed by groups that view themselves as victimized by some notable historical wrong. Although these groups have no formal connection with governments, they usually have the financial and moral backing of sympathetic governments. Typically, they stage unexpected attacks on civilian targets, including embassies and airliners, with the aim of sowing fear and confusion

in Military

The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological

Many definitions of terrorism exist, from various locations within the political spectrum. Most definitions of terrorism recognize and explain four primary criteria, these being the target, the objective, the motive, and the legitimacy of the action.

In November, 2004, a UN panel described terrorism as: "Any action intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians, non-combatants when the purpose of such act, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act."




apperantly the term itself is more than 200 years old, while historically it is much older - it was used even in the 1st century against Roman occupants / opressors.

however


QUOTE

Terrorism is a controversial term with multiple definitions. It can refer to the use of violence for the purpose of achieving a political, religious, or ideological goal through intimidation or by instilling fear rather than for specific military reasons. It can also more specifically mean the calculated or threatened use of violence against civilian targets exclusively. The targets of terrorist acts can be government officials, military personnel, people serving the interests of governments, or civilians. Acts of terror against military targets tend to blend into a strategy of guerrilla warfare. Acts of violence which target civilians are perhaps the most obvious way to arouse fear in the general populace. {one of reason Truman decided to drop the nukes on Japan - to arouse fear and hasten surrender - terrorism ? - Razin
} Intentional violence against civilians (noncombatants) is the type of action most widely condemned as "terrorism." Civilians are usually held to be "innocent" victims of terrorist violence if they are unarmed and not in uniform when it occurs.

Acts of terrorism can be perpetrated by individuals, groups, or states, as an alternative to an open declaration of war. They are often carried out by groups who otherwise feel powerless. Groups that sponsor or engage in the use of terrorist tactics tend to use more neutral or positive terms to describe their own combatants, – such as freedom fighters, patriots, or paramilitaries, while the targets of their activity are quicker to use terms like terrorism. According to one view, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter - but these two terms are not mutually exclusive and not all freedom fighters are considered terrorists. Likewise, not all terrorists are considered freedom fighters.

On the surface, the popular definition of 'terrorism' represents a shift from previous means of defining an enemy from territorial or cultural disputes over ideology or religion, to the acts of violence against the public. Many people dispute this definition however as ideological and simplistic, arguing instead that 'terrorism' is simply another in a long lists of enemy terms — that underneath any current conflict lies the same materialistic and ethnocentric reasons of which most past wars were based and now freely explained. The use of the terms terrorism and terrorist are politically weighted, and are often used to polarizing effect, where 'terrorism' becomes simply a relativist term for the violence committed by an enemy, from the point of view of the attacked. Because of the political nature of some struggles, 'terrorism' can become identified as simply any violence committed against the establishment.


interesting huh ? well, some would say - this is ideological jugllery. however it is an understanding of terms clearly. so, according to paticular definitions - any sort of violence is terrorism. than what is going on in Iraq nowdays is not much different from what happened on 9/11 . arguable of course.

QUOTE
The violence, i.e., terrorism, committed by state combatants is also considered more acceptable than that of the 'terrorist,' who by definition does not follow the self-serving laws of war, and hence cannot share in the acceptance given to establishment violence. Thus the term is impossible to apply by its rational definition — states who engage in warfare often do so outside of the laws of war and often carry out violence against civilian populations, yet rarely receive the label of 'terrorist.' {again - as nukes droped on Japan - Razin} The common public distinction between state violence and terrorism is based on a perception that terrorism targets noncombatants as a consistent policy, and therefore more irrational than state violence, which is assumed to be more considerate of human life, or at least does not consistently pursue unarmed civilian targets with the same zeal.

History does not always bear this out however, and language reflects this: few would question that deliberate attacks on civilian refugee columns and camps is an attempt to induce terror in the enemy population and is therefore a terrorist act. As such the most accurate definition of "terrorism" must be based in its abstract nature as a term for characterising the violence of an enemy as conforming to an immoral code of conduct.

On the other hand, a common characteristic of terrorism is that its perpetrators take shelter behind local population (either sympathetic to their cause or under duress) in an attempt to impede opposing state forces from retaliating, again exacting high civilian casualties if they do. Such casualties would damage the state's public image and earn publicity to the terrorist group cause, objectively demonstrating which side is exploiting civilian deaths and which side is impaired by them.

In this case, a finer definition will distinguish between attacks on civilian population as a primary target, in contrast to civilian casualties resulting from an attack on terrorists who intentionally retreat and live among a largely noncombatant community (as opposed to terrorists who choose to operate from jungles, deserts and other uninhabited areas). See also collateral damage.

Whether the primary "intention" of an attack was to harm civilians or not may seem difficult to ascertain, but in reality there are several unarguable factual pointers: if the attacker makes at least some attempt to reduce civilian casualties, such as by evacuating them forcefully before the attack or warning the authorities in advance within a reasonable space of time (so that they can evacuate), shows some concern to civilian casualties, and would indicate the primary target to be the "system" rather than its civilian inhabitants.

A terrorist' is, strictly speaking, one who is personally involved in an act of terrorism. The term "terrorism" comes from the French 18th century word terrorisme (under the Terror), based on the Latin language verbs terrere (to tremble) and deterrere (to frighten from). The use of the term "terrorist" has had broader applications however, ranging in application from disgruntled citizens to common political dissidents. The term "eco-terrorist" for example was coined to apply to those who damage or destroy property as a symbolic act of resisting economic trends and policy that impact the environment negatively.



may be it is funny (well , at least for me) - but my g/f loves animals and always otraged by any kind of violence towards them. whenever she watches some TV program with report of cruelty to animals or abandoning them etc - she gets so angry that makes statements like "if I had power - I'd kill such people who harm animals - coz I hate them !". well - from particular point of view it makes her a terrorist, coz she threatens to cause violent harm to non-combatant civilians for some her reason and even would probably act according to her threats.

same as many Green Peace activists are arrested for their "terrorist" acts.

the article I refer to is quite long and explicit. it has other references to separate articles "War on Terror" and "Terrorism in Iraq". as well as few interesting and informative essays.

let's see. about "Terrorism in Iraq" it is actually said asIraqi insurgency :

QUOTE
The Iraqi insurgency (also called the Iraqi resistance) comprises the groups fighting against what they see as the U.S. occupation of Iraq and the Iraqi Transitional Government. The various guerrilla and insurgent groups began battling the U.S.-led multinational force and the New Iraqi Army during the occupation of Iraq that followed the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, including what was then the Iraqi interim government of Iyad Allawi. Not all those opposed to the occupation and/or the government use violent means; there are various Iraqi groups and political parties advocating peaceful, non-violent resistance. Thus the broader term "Iraqi resistance" is favored by some.


quite objective explanation seems to me ! there are more details there about different groups, both violent and non- .

here is what said about War on terrorism

QUOTE
The War on terrorism or War on terror (abbreviated in policy circles as GWOT for global war on terror) is a global effort by the governments of several countries (primarily the United States and its principal allies) to neutralize international groups it deems as "terrorist" (primarily radical Islamist terrorist groups, including al-Qaida) and ensure "rogue nations" no longer support terrorist activities. It has been adopted as a consequence of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

Most recently, the current war in Iraq has been tied to the "War on terrorism" by the Bush administration, which has stated that Saddam Hussein of Iraq was giving safe haven to and supporting terrorist groups. This assertion was and remains highly controversial.

The very phrase "War on terrorism" is the subject of some debate and disagreement. First, there has always been considerable debate as to what constitutes terrorism; in addition, the notion of declaring war on an abstract concept is troubling to some (in the same vein as the war on drugs, war on poverty, and the war on crime).

According to French minister Dominique de Villepin, the term war implies the fighting of :

two internationally defined states
according to international laws,
the respect of these laws being judged if needed after the war is over (see Nuremberg Trials).
None of these conditions are met, and as the operations cannot be qualified as regular organized crime fighting either, he suggests that the fight against terrorism continue being called the fight against terrorism.

But Villepin's criteria may be an over-simplification of the complexities of recent armed conflicts. For example, civil wars are not between "two internationally defined states", but rather two competing factions in the same geographical area.

There are difficulties inherent in labelling armed participants as "freedom-fighters," "terrorists," "insurgents," etc., due to the relative criteria required to meet such labels.

Even when the boundaries of an organization are clearly defined, there might not be a way to distinguish some organizations as terrorist or otherwise. For example, the militant Islamist group Hamas, although directly responsible for violent acts that Israelis, Americans, and Europeans deem as terrorism, is also responsible for many of the charities and other social welfare programs in Palestine.

Among those who accept the term "War on terrorism," there are disagreements as to which actions, by which states, should be considered as part of the "war." For example, the Bush administration, despite considerable international and domestic disagreement, contends that the pre-emptive 2003 invasion of Iraq and the subsequent occupation is a crucial part of the war on terrorism. Likewise, Russia has recently asserted that its ongoing struggles with Chechen fighters should be part of the international effort.

Noam Chomsky has argued that some commonly accepted definitions of "terrorism", as accepted by U.S. officials, also apply to many of the actions undertaken by the U.S. in the name of "the war on terror." Since, according to Chomsky, the U.S. engages in terrorism, he concludes that the "war against terror" is aimed only at terrorism directed at the U.S. and their allies. [1] (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112--02.htm)


of course politicians skip many sharp edges and omit contraversial points. and general public anyway is passive, lazy and powerless to make much difference. so, the term "War on terror" becomes more and more rather idiomatic, sort of slang. pretty much as many other political terms nowdays.
Taste o Truth
QUOTE (dixon76710 @ May 25 2005, 05:24 PM)
Nobody has ever claimed that American military "had (NOT BEEN) accused" by the prisoners of flushing a Koran.                              MARK
*


dixon76710
Blah blah blah..... Debating the outer limits of the definition of terrorism instead of agreeing that flying passenger airliners into office buildings IS TERRORISM. Arguing that military action by nations is terrorism to justify military action against civilians by any NGO with a grievance, as no less legitimate.
You sound like a UN delegate debating whether genocide has occured in Sudan while bands of mounted Arab militias have killed, raped, maimed, looted and burned down tens of thousands of village homes of non-Arabs. MARK
ustrader
popcorn.gif ohmy.gif

Like all dreamers, they always mistake disenchantment for truth


QUOTE
  Da Idioms of the master of Predilection of Veracity

You're going to be left with nothing but Fox News and Pentagon press releases at the rate you're going.


Hmmm! popcorn.gif

The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers ( Media contrivance add for emphasis). ~Thomas Jefferson

The one function that TV news performs very well is that when there is no news we give it to you with the same emphasis as if there were. ~David Brinkley

Harmony seldom makes a headline. ~Silas Bent

If one morning I walked on top of the water across the Potomac River, the headline that afternoon would read: "President Can't Swim." ~Lyndon B. Johnson


QUOTE
If you knew how to read the news critically and intelligently you wouldn't have these problems


Hmmm! popcorn.gif

Are we to presume and assume, that by this statement of self appointed interpretive literacy, not only a pretense of egocentric self acclaim but as well an assumption that you do view the world both critically and intelligently?

May we please have the prove of that evidences that veracity so acclaimed?
A Link would be nice? wink.gif


Hmmm! popcorn.gif

This problem resolution alternative so offered seems to acclaim a characterization of a person who, if asked by another bystander, at the very moment they saw a man drowning , what are you going to do, save him or photograph his drowning, he. would, as herein likewise respond in self concentric character and similar self preserving style, what kind of film should I use ?





That is all!
Taste o Truth
QUOTE (ustrader @ May 25 2005, 08:42 PM)
Are we to presume and assume, that by this statement of self appointed interpretive literacy, not only a pretense of egocentric self acclaim but as well an assumption that you do view the world both critically and intelligently?

May we please have the prove of that evidences that veracity so acclaimed?
A Link would be nice? wink.gif
*


A link to the way I interpret the news that I take in that shows I view the world both critically and intelligently? Uh....... sorry....... don't have a hyperlink to my brain.

QUOTE
May we please have the prove of that evidences that veracity so acclaimed?


BTW, I think you need to put away your thesaurus and go back to english class. I'm assuming you meant "May we please have the proof that evidences that veracity so acclaimed?"

Normally I don't play grammar checker on forums, but since you seem to be trying to make a point with all your whoop-de-do big words and labyrinthine grammatical intricacy, I thought I'd point it out. rolleyes.gif



That is all! 002.gif
Ikonoclastia
QUOTE (dixon76710 @ May 25 2005, 09:34 PM)
Blah blah blah..... Debating the outer limits of the definition of terrorism instead of agreeing that flying passenger airliners into office buildings IS TERRORISM. Arguing that military action by nations is terrorism to justify military action against civilians by any NGO with a grievance, as no less legitimate.

*snip*

*

The world trade centre was a legitimate military target - Why? It was a symbol of US power and also a tool used to punish nations economically. It also housed several military / intelligence offices. We're it owned and located in Iraq in 2002, it would have been one of the first military targets to be hit by the 'Shock and Awe' campaign of the American invasion.

The pentagon likewise was a legitimate military target which doesn't even have to be explained.

Oh but you'll say that 'there were innocent civilians in those planes!!'. Well there were innocent civilians in the buildings you blew up with cruise missiles in Iraq. The only difference is in the 9/11 attacks the civilians were Americans, not collateral damage aka 'foriegn people'. Tough luck.


2 Recipes for Crispy Critters
==================


1 Jetliner
Civilians.
1 Building

Add Jetliner + Civilians. Stir. Add Building and stir vigorously. Wait to cool.


Or

1 Cruise Missile
Civilians
1 Building

Add Civilians + Building, Stir. Add 1 Cruise Missile and stir vigourously. Wait to cool.



You see how there is really no difference in the outcome of both scenarios. Both produce the same thing, crispy dead humans and rubble.

Ikonoclastia
Taste o Truth
Actually... most of the government offices were in WTC 7.

You know, the building that fell down even though it wasn't hit by a plane, that just had a few fires on a few floors? The building that owner Larry Silverstein said they "pulled"? Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, it had CIA, FEMA, SS, whole bunch of government offices.
dixon76710
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 25 2005, 09:39 PM)
Oh but you'll say that 'there were innocent civilians in those planes!!'.  Well there were innocent civilians in the buildings you blew up with cruise missiles in Iraq.  The only difference is in the 9/11 attacks the civilians were Americans, not collateral damage aka 'foriegn people'.  Tough luck.
*




No, I would say you are perfectly demonstrating my point. MARK
Ben-T
QUOTE (Ikonoclastia @ May 25 2005, 03:28 PM)
And here we have the great deception.  You asked that question as if there is one single goal that terrorists in their single organization are fighting for.  You talk as if Al Queda has the same goals as Hamas or the IRA and seem to believe they're all muslims.  Thats niave and silly.  Get educated before you lock yourself into boxes on issues please.

Some terrorist Organizations:

  Abu Sayyaf Group  Philippines 
  Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya  Egypt 
  Al-Qa'ida  Afghanistan 
  Al-Takfir W’al Hijra  unknown 
  Armata Corsa  France 
  Armed Islamic Group  Algeria 
  Aum Shinrikyo  Japan 
  Basque Homeland and Freedom  Spain 
  Chukaku-Ha  Japan 
  Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine  Palestinian 
  Fatah - Revolutionary Council  Lebanon 
  Fatah Tanzim  Palestinian 
  Force 17  Palestinian 
  Great East Islamic Raiders Front (IBDA-C)  Turkey 
  Hamas  Palestinian 
  Harakat ul-Mujahedin  Pakistan 
  Hizballah  Lebanon 
  Hizb-ul Mujehideen  Pakistan 
  Irish Republican Army  Northern Ireland 
  Jamaat ul-Fuqra  Pakistan 
  Japanese Red Army  Japan 
  Jihad Group  Egypt 
  Kach and Kahane Chai  Israel 
  Kurdistan Worker's Party  Turkey 
  Lashkar-e-Toiba  Pakistan 
  Lautaro Youth Movement  Chile 
  Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam  Sri Lanka 
  Loyalist Volunteer Force  Northern Ireland 
  Manuel Rodriquez Patriotic Front  Chile 
  Martyrs of al-Aqsa  Palestinian 
  Moranzanist Patriotic Front  Honduras 
  Moro Islamic Liberation Front  Philippines 
  Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MEK)  Iran 
  National Liberation Army Colombia  Colombia 
  National Liberation Front of Corsica  France 
  Nestor Paz Zamora Commission (CNPZ)  Bolivia 
  New People's Army  Philippines 
  Palestine Liberation Front  Iraq 
  Palestinian Islamic Jihad  Palestinian 
  Party of Democratic Kampuchea  Cambodia 
  Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine  Palestinian 
  Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command  Palestinian 
  Popular Struggle Front  Syria 
  Qibla and People Against Gangsterism and Drugs  South Africa 
  Real IRA  Northern Ireland 
  Red Army Faction  Germany 
  Red Brigades  Italy 
  Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia  Colombia 
  Revolutionary Organization 17 November  Greece 
  Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front  Turkey 
  Revolutionary People's Struggle  Greece 
  Sendero Luminoso  Peru 
  Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan  Pakistan 
  Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement  Peru 
  United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia 

Ikonoclastia
*


Is there any ######ing question which terrorists he is talking about? Of course not. He is talking about Anti-American Islamist Terrorists based out of the Middle East. To question that is just to play stupid semantics games.
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