I am convinced that it is an empire, and a rapidly declining one at that.
The vacuum left by the decline of the American empire means the world is in for more dangerous and unstable times.
Some source info on the topic:
http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i29/29b00701.htm
I realize Mr. Bent is in denial about the fact of American empire, how do others feel, from the right and left?
Full Version: America IS an empire
In what sense IS America an empire?
One could certainly say America is an ECONOMIC empire in the world.
One could certainly ay America has an EMPIRE of influence in the world.
But in the old sense of an Empire? Either in the Roman style or the Colonial sense, it fits neither.
America instead has done more to ENSURE and SPREAD national sovereignty than any other nation in world history.
One could certainly say America is an ECONOMIC empire in the world.
One could certainly ay America has an EMPIRE of influence in the world.
But in the old sense of an Empire? Either in the Roman style or the Colonial sense, it fits neither.
America instead has done more to ENSURE and SPREAD national sovereignty than any other nation in world history.
Good thing you are going to college.
High school obviously had some MAJOR GAPS for you.
High school obviously had some MAJOR GAPS for you.
Really? Why don't you go ahead and elaborate on that one with a reasoned, factual argument. After all, theres a first time for everything.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 26 2005, 07:57 PM)
JIM GARRISON SAYS IT, IT MUST BE TRUE!
According to this man's logic, any nation that believes in retaining it's national sovereignty is a de facto empire.
I actually have never heard of any serious political thinker who thinks America is NOT an empire.
It is kind of like saying the world is flat.
TAKE A CLASS!!!!
Again, HOW did you get into Dartmouth? You a jock football player?
It is kind of like saying the world is flat.
TAKE A CLASS!!!!
Again, HOW did you get into Dartmouth? You a jock football player?
From my understanding you have never read a serious political thinker. Locke? Hobbes? Keynes? Smith? Marx? Chomsky? Milton Friedman? Thomas Friedman? Kristol? Hayek? Any of them?
There is a difference between an immensely powerful nation and an empire. Learn the freaking difference.
America has an EMPIRE of influence.
America has an EMPIRE of economic power.
America is not a colonial empire.
America is not a traditional territorial empire.
So which is it you are referring to? According to the article you cited, the very fact that America is willing to take actio without checking with the UN first makes it a de facto empire.
There is a difference between an immensely powerful nation and an empire. Learn the freaking difference.
America has an EMPIRE of influence.
America has an EMPIRE of economic power.
America is not a colonial empire.
America is not a traditional territorial empire.
So which is it you are referring to? According to the article you cited, the very fact that America is willing to take actio without checking with the UN first makes it a de facto empire.
Yes, dear, I went to Amherst. I read lots of authors including some you mentioned.
You are confused.
It is interesting that it bothers you so much that America is an empire.
Why does this disturb you?
You are confused.
It is interesting that it bothers you so much that America is an empire.
Why does this disturb you?
It wouldn't bother me if America was an empire.
However apparently going to Amherst didn't quite hit home to you that WORDS HAVE DEFINITIONS. And America does not FIT THE DEFINITION of the word EMPIRE in the sense that you are pushing.
However apparently going to Amherst didn't quite hit home to you that WORDS HAVE DEFINITIONS. And America does not FIT THE DEFINITION of the word EMPIRE in the sense that you are pushing.
I am not pushing a particular definition of empire. I can live with the standard one.
Again, I say, you are out on a cliff all alone thinking America is not an empire.
Good luck in your future studies.
I will say I am glad I did not pursue a career in teaching.
Teaching a student like you would drive me crazy!
Again, I say, you are out on a cliff all alone thinking America is not an empire.
Good luck in your future studies.
I will say I am glad I did not pursue a career in teaching.
Teaching a student like you would drive me crazy!
An America with a empire of influence, with an empire of economic power? Yes.
An American that is a colonial empire? Of course not, it simply doesn't fit the definition of the word.
An America that is a territorial empire? No, still doesn't fit the defintion of the word.
Apparently you can simply sit there saying America is an empire without paying any attention to what an EMPIRE is.
An American that is a colonial empire? Of course not, it simply doesn't fit the definition of the word.
An America that is a territorial empire? No, still doesn't fit the defintion of the word.
Apparently you can simply sit there saying America is an empire without paying any attention to what an EMPIRE is.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 26 2005, 08:13 PM)
Yes, dear, I went to Amherst. I read lots of authors including some you mentioned.
You are confused.
It is interesting that it bothers you so much that America is an empire.
Why does this disturb you?
You are confused.
It is interesting that it bothers you so much that America is an empire.
Why does this disturb you?
Amherst?
Damm, I would have pegged you as Wellesley er... person. 
QUOTE (Nomad @ Jun 27 2005, 03:39 AM)
Amherst? Damm, I would have pegged you as Wellesley er... person.
Damm, I would have pegged you as Wellesley er... person. Why, er ... thank you!
America as empire fits very well with this definition of empire:
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control.
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control.
Really? Where does it hold imperial soveireignty, domination, or control outside of the borders of these United States?
This should clear things up for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Empire
"At the same time, many statesmen, scholars, and historians within the United States insist that America is an empire in the sense that the country holds tremendous power over the world, comparable to other great empires of history. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Empire
"At the same time, many statesmen, scholars, and historians within the United States insist that America is an empire in the sense that the country holds tremendous power over the world, comparable to other great empires of history. "
No, no, no, let's stick to the DEFINITION OF THE WORD.
WHERE Does America hold imperial sovereignty domination or control outside the borders of these United States? If American possession of Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands is supposed to make us a global empire, than the left has hit a sad state of affairs.
WHERE Does America hold imperial sovereignty domination or control outside the borders of these United States? If American possession of Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands is supposed to make us a global empire, than the left has hit a sad state of affairs.
You are a nut.
The concept of America as an empire is accepted by the American RIGHT, the American LEFT, and the world at large!
Where the hell did you get the idea that recognizing American empire is a LEFT WING idea?
Also from Wiki:
From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against "intolerable" regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the deaths of several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
DOMINATION!
CONTROL!
EMPIRE!
The concept of America as an empire is accepted by the American RIGHT, the American LEFT, and the world at large!
Where the hell did you get the idea that recognizing American empire is a LEFT WING idea?
Also from Wiki:
From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against "intolerable" regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the deaths of several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
DOMINATION!
CONTROL!
EMPIRE!
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 26 2005, 09:12 PM)
You are a nut.
The concept of America as an empire is accepted by the American RIGHT, the American LEFT, and the world at large!
Where the hell did you get the idea that recognizing American empire is a LEFT WING idea?
Also from Wiki:
From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against "intolerable" regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the deaths of several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
The concept of America as an empire is accepted by the American RIGHT, the American LEFT, and the world at large!
Where the hell did you get the idea that recognizing American empire is a LEFT WING idea?
Also from Wiki:
From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against "intolerable" regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the deaths of several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
Yes clearly it is a fair and balanced article.
My favirote theory of American empire is the idea of "Neo-Imperialism" cooked up by the America-haters.
"America doesn't fit the definition of the word empire, but we want to say it's an empire anyways, so it's NEO-IMPERIALIST!"
The right winger New American Century crowd, in other words the neo con bush crowd also believe America is an empire.
This has NOTHING to do with right and left wing.
This has NOTHING to do with right and left wing.
The Project for the New American Century doesn't claim America is an empire, they just want to make it one.
Either way, the "America as Imperial" crowd are simply wrong, regardless of their background. Words have DEFINITIONS. America doesn't fit the definition of Empire.
Now certainly one could say America is an economic EMPIRE, in the way one could say that Newcorp is a media EMPIRE, and that America has built up an EMPIRE of world influence. However in the classic definition of what constitutes an empire, America doesn't fit the puzzle. Sorry, control of Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands don't qualify us as a global empire.
Either way, the "America as Imperial" crowd are simply wrong, regardless of their background. Words have DEFINITIONS. America doesn't fit the definition of Empire.
Now certainly one could say America is an economic EMPIRE, in the way one could say that Newcorp is a media EMPIRE, and that America has built up an EMPIRE of world influence. However in the classic definition of what constitutes an empire, America doesn't fit the puzzle. Sorry, control of Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands don't qualify us as a global empire.
You are totally wrong.
New American Century sees America as a current empire and wishes to extend that into this century.
Again, TAKE A CLASS!
New American Century sees America as a current empire and wishes to extend that into this century.
Again, TAKE A CLASS!
I suggest you do some simple reading.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Show me the part where they say America is an empire.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Show me the part where they say America is an empire.
SATISFIED????
If not, I give up. You are hopeless.
http://www.pnac.info/blog/archives/000051.html
Empire or Not? A Quiet Debate Over U.S. Role
By Thomas E. Ricks
Tuesday, August 21, 2001
People who label the United States "imperialist" usually mean it as an insult. But in recent years a handful of conservative defense intellectuals have begun to argue that the United States is indeed acting in an imperialist fashion -- and that it should embrace the role.
When the Cold War ended just over a decade ago, these thinkers note, the United States actually expanded its global military presence. With the establishment over the last decade of a semi-permanent presence of about 20,000 troops in the Persian Gulf area, they contend, the United States is now a major military power in almost every region of the world -- the Mideast, Europe, East Asia and the Western Hemisphere. And even though the United States is unlikely to fight a major war anytime soon, they believe, it remains very active militarily around the globe, keeping the peace in Bosnia and Kosovo, garrisoning 37,000 troops in South Korea, patroling the skies of Iraq, and seeking to balance the rise of China.
The leading advocate of this idea of enforcing a new "Pax Americana" is Thomas Donnelly, deputy executive director of the Project for the New American Century, a Washington think tank that advocates a vigorous, expansionistic Reaganite foreign policy. In ways similar though not identical to the Roman and British empires, he argues, the United States is an empire of democracy or liberty -- it is not conquering land or establishing colonies, but it has a dominating global presence militarily, economically and culturally…
If not, I give up. You are hopeless.
http://www.pnac.info/blog/archives/000051.html
Empire or Not? A Quiet Debate Over U.S. Role
By Thomas E. Ricks
Tuesday, August 21, 2001
People who label the United States "imperialist" usually mean it as an insult. But in recent years a handful of conservative defense intellectuals have begun to argue that the United States is indeed acting in an imperialist fashion -- and that it should embrace the role.
When the Cold War ended just over a decade ago, these thinkers note, the United States actually expanded its global military presence. With the establishment over the last decade of a semi-permanent presence of about 20,000 troops in the Persian Gulf area, they contend, the United States is now a major military power in almost every region of the world -- the Mideast, Europe, East Asia and the Western Hemisphere. And even though the United States is unlikely to fight a major war anytime soon, they believe, it remains very active militarily around the globe, keeping the peace in Bosnia and Kosovo, garrisoning 37,000 troops in South Korea, patroling the skies of Iraq, and seeking to balance the rise of China.
The leading advocate of this idea of enforcing a new "Pax Americana" is Thomas Donnelly, deputy executive director of the Project for the New American Century, a Washington think tank that advocates a vigorous, expansionistic Reaganite foreign policy. In ways similar though not identical to the Roman and British empires, he argues, the United States is an empire of democracy or liberty -- it is not conquering land or establishing colonies, but it has a dominating global presence militarily, economically and culturally…
Okay. He's as wrong as anyone else who says America is an empire.
"Empire of Democracy"
"Empire of Liberty"
These are rhetorical brand names with no real meaning attached to them, and he knows it. It is clear that PNAC is unstatisfied with the current US foreign policy, and would be much interested in making America a "real empire" as opposed to the rhetorical empire they talk about today.
We already established in this thread a definition of what an empire is. America doesn't fit it.
It is however interesting to note that doing a search for the world "Empire" on PNAC's website reveals exactly 0 return articles.
"Empire of Democracy"
"Empire of Liberty"
These are rhetorical brand names with no real meaning attached to them, and he knows it. It is clear that PNAC is unstatisfied with the current US foreign policy, and would be much interested in making America a "real empire" as opposed to the rhetorical empire they talk about today.
We already established in this thread a definition of what an empire is. America doesn't fit it.
It is however interesting to note that doing a search for the world "Empire" on PNAC's website reveals exactly 0 return articles.
OK, if it makes you happy to believe that, be my guest.
Right.
"Words have definitions, except when the definitions don't fit my ideology. Then the definitions magically change!"
"Words have definitions, except when the definitions don't fit my ideology. Then the definitions magically change!"
This is not about my ideology.
It is about an accepted reality on the right, on the left, in the center, and all around the world.
You can march to the beat of your own drummer.
It is about an accepted reality on the right, on the left, in the center, and all around the world.
You can march to the beat of your own drummer.
Um, WORD HAVE MOTHERF U C K I N G DEFINITIONS!
Anyone, ANYONE, who thinks that America is an empire in the sense that you propogated at the beginning of this thread is simply stupid. There IS a definition for the word empire that can be accurately attributed to America, and it isn't the definition you are propagating.
You are shamelesslly intellectually dishonest as ever.
Anyone, ANYONE, who thinks that America is an empire in the sense that you propogated at the beginning of this thread is simply stupid. There IS a definition for the word empire that can be accurately attributed to America, and it isn't the definition you are propagating.
You are shamelesslly intellectually dishonest as ever.
OK, the whole world are idiots and you know best.
Here, take a pill now, Kay?
Here, take a pill now, Kay?
No, the vast majority of the world acknowledges that American fits the defintion of the world Empire in one since.
You, ever the intellectually dishonest crusader, propogate a totally seperate definition of the word Empire and attempt to label it to America.
You, ever the intellectually dishonest crusader, propogate a totally seperate definition of the word Empire and attempt to label it to America.
THA T
IS
ALL!
IS
ALL!
QUOTE (Ben-T @ Jun 26 2005, 10:19 PM)
Sorry, control of Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands don't qualify us as a global empire.
You forgot Guam, Johnson AFB, Mdway Island, Wake Island, Northern Mariannas.......with these islands and their massive land area, we are forming a mighty empire!
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 26 2005, 09:22 PM)
You are totally wrong.
New American Century sees America as a current empire and wishes to extend that into this century.
Again, TAKE A CLASS!
New American Century sees America as a current empire and wishes to extend that into this century.
Again, TAKE A CLASS!
Learn the language. MARK
Main Entry: em·pire
Pronunciation: 'em-"pIr
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French empire, empirie, from Latin imperium absolute authority, empire, from imperare
1 a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state
Y'all are just playing denial games ... America is indeed an empire and if you don't recognize it, you are only fooling yourselves:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3430199.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3430199.stm
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 02:11 PM)
Y'all are just playing denial games ... America is indeed an empire and if you don't recognize it, you are only fooling yourselves:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3430199.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3430199.stm
The article asks "Is America really in any sense an empire like Ancient Rome or Victorian Britain?" Your silly preconcieved notions answered the question, not the article. MARK
Almost all of the experts quoted in the article believe America is an empire. OF COURSE no two empires are exactly alike! These are different times and the nature of American power is unique.
But stop acting like America is not massively powerful. It is.
But stop acting like America is not massively powerful. It is.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 02:32 PM)
Almost all of the experts quoted in the article believe America is an empire. OF COURSE no two empires are exactly alike! These are different times and the nature of American power is unique.
But stop acting like America is not massively powerful. It is.
But stop acting like America is not massively powerful. It is.
Like I said, learn the language. It gives the opinion of three people. One that says America is an Empire, one that says is is not. And one that says the term is not quite right. one out of three is FAR FROM "almost all the experts". MARK
QUOTE (dixon76710 @ Jun 27 2005, 09:50 PM)
Like I said, learn the language. It gives the opinion of three people. One that says America is an Empire, one that says is is not. And one that says the term is not quite right. one out of three is FAR FROM "almost all the experts". MARK
Not quite SKID MARK,
the supposed not quite right person also said:
As he put it: "Empire is not quite right but it seems to be closer than anything else we have in common usage, so we employ it."
It is interesting that this bothers you so much. Can't stand the pressure of it all?
Here are some more SERIOUS thinkers who believe in the obvious fact that America is indeed an EMPIRE --
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge?040202crat_atlarge
Whatever gave you the idea that it bothered me? Im just pointing out the obvious. The dictionary definition of empire which America doesnt even resemble, and your lies about what the article says.
I dont have a problem with the rest of the world thinking America is the most influential country in the world and I dont have a problem with people refering to that sphere of influence as an "empire". And its fun watching you get your panties all knotted up when presented with the obvious. MARK
I dont have a problem with the rest of the world thinking America is the most influential country in the world and I dont have a problem with people refering to that sphere of influence as an "empire". And its fun watching you get your panties all knotted up when presented with the obvious. MARK
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 02:57 PM)
Not quite SKID MARK,
the supposed not quite right person also said:
As he put it: "Empire is not quite right but it seems to be closer than anything else we have in common usage, so we employ it."
It is interesting that this bothers you so much. Can't stand the pressure of it all?
Here are some more SERIOUS thinkers who believe in the obvious fact that America is indeed an EMPIRE --
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge?040202crat_atlarge
the supposed not quite right person also said:
As he put it: "Empire is not quite right but it seems to be closer than anything else we have in common usage, so we employ it."
It is interesting that this bothers you so much. Can't stand the pressure of it all?
Here are some more SERIOUS thinkers who believe in the obvious fact that America is indeed an EMPIRE --
http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge?040202crat_atlarge
It is you guys who are so funny.
Holding on to literal definitions like a dried up school marm!
The reality is the term EMPIRE is the closest existing word to the situation of America today.
Perhaps we need a new word, but we are indeed limited by the existing words in the language.
Holding on to literal definitions like a dried up school marm!
The reality is the term EMPIRE is the closest existing word to the situation of America today.
Perhaps we need a new word, but we are indeed limited by the existing words in the language.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 03:35 PM)
It is you guys who are so funny.
Holding on to literal definitions like a dried up school marm!
The reality is the term EMPIRE is the closest existing word to the situation of America today.
Perhaps we need a new word, but we are indeed limited by the existing words in the language.
Holding on to literal definitions like a dried up school marm!
The reality is the term EMPIRE is the closest existing word to the situation of America today.
Perhaps we need a new word, but we are indeed limited by the existing words in the language.
"closest existing word"???? Empire refers to a "number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority". Just what territories do you consider to be a part of our empire? And Ill give you better words? MARK
QUOTE (dixon76710 @ Jun 27 2005, 11:47 PM)
"closest existing word"???? Empire refers to a "number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority". Just what territories do you consider to be a part of our empire? And Ill give you better words? MARK
SCHOOL MARM!!!
What a prig.
There are multiple definitions for the word.
That is only one of them.
You are just trolling, so this conversation ends now, unless someone SERIOUS wants to discuss American empire. Ba bye.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 03:32 PM)
stop acting like America is not massively powerful. It is.
And what's wrong with that?
Nature hates a vacuum and if we weren't top dog, someone else would be so what's the beef?
QUOTE (Boon Mee @ Jun 28 2005, 12:20 AM)
And what's wrong with that?
Nature hates a vacuum and if we weren't top dog, someone else would be so what's the beef?
Nature hates a vacuum and if we weren't top dog, someone else would be so what's the beef?
I agree. We are an empire.
So the "beef" is how do we handle that, and also how do we handle the inevitable decline of the empire as the power shifts to another country.
Also, is what bush is doing enhancing the empire or speeding up its demise?
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 04:53 PM)
SCHOOL MARM!!!
What a prig.
There are multiple definitions for the word.
That is only one of them.
You are just trolling, so this conversation ends now, unless someone SERIOUS wants to discuss American empire. Ba bye.
What a prig.
There are multiple definitions for the word.
That is only one of them.
You are just trolling, so this conversation ends now, unless someone SERIOUS wants to discuss American empire. Ba bye.
No, there are only two definitions. How can we discuss this empire if you wont define it? What countries are within the "empire"
1 a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit b : something resembling a political empire; especially : an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control
2 : imperial sovereignty, rule, or dominion
Or were you refering to the PNAC's "empire of democracy or liberty"? MARK
You won't give it up!
Another definition of the word:
EMPIRE
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: "There is a growing sense that the course of empire is shifting toward the . . . Asians" (James Traub).
This fits perfectly.
Another definition of the word:
EMPIRE
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: "There is a growing sense that the course of empire is shifting toward the . . . Asians" (James Traub).
This fits perfectly.
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 27 2005, 07:26 PM)
You won't give it up!
Another definition of the word:
EMPIRE
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: "There is a growing sense that the course of empire is shifting toward the . . . Asians" (James Traub).
This fits perfectly.
Another definition of the word:
EMPIRE
Imperial or imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control: "There is a growing sense that the course of empire is shifting toward the . . . Asians" (James Traub).
This fits perfectly.
Meriam Websters doesnt include the third one.
Sooo what territories do we have "imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control" over? Is Canada part of our empire? Is Osmanli a subject of the American empire? How about the Philipines or Panama? Do we still have this "imperialistic sovereignty, domination, or control" over them after they kicked our military out?
MARK
The US most certainly exercises domination and control over great portions of the entire world.
Not total domination and control, of course, but an influence that is arguably similar to the British domination and control over much of the world during their empire.
Look at the long history of gunboat diplomacy.
Not total domination and control, of course, but an influence that is arguably similar to the British domination and control over much of the world during their empire.
Look at the long history of gunboat diplomacy.
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