I had some discussion with fellow farang here in Bangkok recently who has been in this country much longer than me.

he told me many things sort of "not spoken openly".

one of which is - that actually Chinese own this country and real thais are kept uneducated, powerless, poor etc.

according to his observations and references to different sources, Thailand actually is almost like South Africa was in those days or US earlier, although not so evidently and without written signs on the public seats "only for ..."

and that all the so called "TRT" or attitudes towards farangs originated from that enthinc group, and since it runs the country - it is made to appear into sort of national mood.

and the main thing is - that it is like one of those tabu subjects, practically forbidden to speak up openly here.


so, I'd like to hear form those who realy have something constructive to say. I don't expect much - since it looks like most here are busy playing other games like "cheerledears", "leftist-rigtist", "america-bashers Vs anti-america-bashers" etc.... it is also understood - that same guy told me that actually Western countries don't realy talk much about it, but keep their mouth shut - after all even though Cold War is over, the same principles apply: as long as they can continue having their firm foothold in the region, let those who ensure it do as they would; after all they hate those "reds" of mainland China, so never mind they run the show practically all over S.E.A.

I realy would like to know the facts if possible - sort of "to understand the reality" as that guy put it. I'll make similar subject on another Forum out of curiosity, to see what outcome will be.

No one will allow a discussion like that on ANY Thai board...... too sensitive IMO.

Mike

oops - I didn't realise this is also Thai board. I had an impression that it was sold and re-sold more then once as well as hosted elsewhere.

I didn't mean to cause troubles.

but your comment speaks enough for me. thanks.

Razin,

And you misunderstood me.......
I replied to the last part of your post :interpreting that to be TV.
And on that board - and other Thai boards - your subject will indeed be taboo !
I hope all is clear now.....

Mike

oooh! ok then - clear, thanks !

I didn't even think about making it there but elsewhere, more liberal like AE. after all VT isn't that interesting nowdays. yeah sufficient T. bashing goes on which could rather be considered whining of inert and passive expats, most probably never satisfied anywhere. otherwise it becomes more and more stagnant day by day. and sure, I know their rules about it there - that's why you see this subject started here, not there if you haven't done the "maths" before....

then perhaps here some would share what they know.

THA T
IS
ALL!

The fact the Thai-Chinese are the dominant economic force in Thailand is evident. Whether there is an underlying conspiracy to keep the other ethnic blends down is a question that has merit.
I think that perhaps in the recent past that was more true as is is only recently that all children are required to go to school for 6 years.
I think the availability and quality of education available to certain people is what plays the most important factor.
I've only been here a year and cant really comment much about how things have been in the past.
But is does seem as if Thailand is emerging from something like the dark ages where certain classes of people were kept down trodden.
As a foreigner with only bare survival language skills in thai it is hard to estimate what is really going on.
But my limited experience has shown that the Thai-chinese consider themselves superior to everyone else. Many seem to shun the farang as well. They treat the darker skinned lao/khymer-thai as inferiors. I seems the people from the south are the ones who get the worst of it. And that has been going on for a very long time too.
What most farang dont really understand is how old this culture is and that perhaps as Razin you are noting the ingrained bigotry may run deeper than we western foreigners realize.
Note that they're calendar year is 2548. This shows they don't readily acknowledge certain standards of the western world. And frankly why should they? I kind of like living in calendar year 2548!



I think as I learn the language more these things will become more evident.

Money really is an important factor here (as everywhere I guess). Westerners here do have more power due to having more money.
That is why those who have superior money making skills live in nicer houses and have maids.
I like having a maid! But I pay her well and I suspect her working conditions are much better than many other Thai people who work the rice fields for less than 200 baht a day. For her to make 100 baht an hour clean my house is very good in comparison.
Many of the massage girls from Isaan I know make close to 1000 baht a day and are very happy with their jobs. Beats planting rice in the hot sun!
I have noticed how the girls from Isaan do tend look down upon their counterparts from the south.
So I don't think the bigotry is restricted to the Thai-Chinese.

I do not see any reason, why not to talk about it.
Why censorship about this subject?

Chinese-Thai are often mixed in Central, North and Eastern Thailand, difficult to say, who is who....plenty of other nationalities also around.

I think, the only point is, who has money and who not...
About foreigners, the point is who has Thai nationality and who has not, as there are restriction, what you can do with your money....but otherwise?
-----
Only in South Thailand, Chinese feel they are not Thai, Thai-Muslims feel they are not Thai, Indians feel they are not Thai.......
These groups have the clear majority near Malaysian border - about 5 Chinese, Thai-Muslim, Indians etc. for 1 Thai.
Thai people are not welcome there, a lot of trouble going on in this Southern provinces.



Why should it be sensitive on ANY Thai board?

thanks for expressed opinions.

ustrader, old friend ! you sometimes surprise by your straight logic. yes, u r right - same as about 4th, or 5h - not to speak 10th, 25th etc. - generation of "real" americans.... good point - thanks. according to some historical researches, practically whole population of present Thailand are descendents of some group in S. China - I forgot that province name. so, after all there might be no any real Thais if examined that closely and from that perspective. or some say that the only existing ethnic group which could be considered as real original Thai residents - are those Karen tribes, which nowdays are torn between Thailand and Myanmar - people without country or independent national identiy, something like those Kurds. and they are almost extinct anyway. same as real "bhumiputras" (this very sensetive matter for chinese and indians in Malaysia) are not Malays, but few surviving "orang-asli" or aborigenes living in the jungles; while Malay, who proudly claim to be "bhumiputras" and therefore must be more priveleged, are also migrants from somewhere S. China or this area which is called Indo-China.... or same like those "sagai" tribe might be the only real "Thai" in S. Thailand.

bob, you gave nice points too. I knews about economic dominance by ethnic chinese in Malaysia and elsewhere, like Phillipins, Indonesia. however I never thought of thinking in such a way like that french guy insisted things are : that chinese not only dominate economically, but politically and socially - or in other words, run this country and are the origin of all main trends and attitudes etc. like that well known xenophobia tendency. so, I was and still am reluctened to accept such version, because it seems a bit extreme. however many things and issues and aspects of local culture and way of how things done - fall into place once we suppose that such explanation is true. it was a bit too much "eyes opening" sort of things to be easily dismissed as some conspiracy theory. that's why I deceided to check it out and ask opinions. in fact he has told me some things which I felt realy shoking which I am not sure I can mention even here, although many say that this board is not so sensitive to such matters as TV. historical facts at that. if those here who are interested would insist - I may speak aloud those few things.

about that bigotry - yes, there are as seems a lot of things foreigners don't even comprehend, or bother to, and therefore aware of, or even if are - then don't talk much about. well, only when and to extent when they are concerned - like as you've mentioned some ethnic chinese shun farangs. although according to that guy - whatever base or source of dislike of foreigners, is coming from chinese.


Yohan, thanks for encouragement to continue this thread ! although it seems not that many are interested in it.

THA T
IS
ALL!

You're right, Razin but it is typical of many developping countries.
In Thailand, the Chinese Thai own a lot of the businesses and are now also in power at government level.
In Indonesia and Malaysia, the Chinese own a big chunk of the country wealth.
In the Philippines, 300 families own the country, the 20 millions others have nothing.
...

The Thai (Tai) people may be from Southern China (Schezuan, I think), but the Han Chinese migrated to China themselves - this is long enough go to be an entirely moot point .... some Southern Chinese still speak Thai, but it is the Han Chinese that matter on this topic (correct me if I'm wrong here)

China is now and has been the 800 lb gorilla on the block for a LOOONG time, with the exception of a few Khans ... In the 1500s, the Chinese sent a fleet of 30K soldiers around to "negotiate" trade deals, and they sailed up the Chao Phrya more than once. (can't remember the size of Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet, but it was not much more than 10K, as a comparison)

So Chinese influence and business influence has been around a long time. China and Thailand have had numerous wars stretching back millenia. The Chinese mark goes back a LONG time. So on the face of it you cans afely say that the Chinese run things like the Americans run Mexico. They don't, but if the US wants something done, its likely to get cooperation.

But I expect its much more complicated than that. Afterall, there is a large native population that controls a lot of the resources.

In addition, there is long standing racial bias against the Thais on many levels. The ones I am aware of are not just skin color, but culture and economic status. Thais generally aren't doing as well as HK Chinese and HK Chinese look down on them for that.

I wouldn't want to get to deep in here (far beyond the level of my understanding ... or farther under than I am now, that is) but I don't think that Chinese keeping the Thai down is exactly required to have that effect. I don't mean anyhting derrogatory at all here, but Thais certainly don't have a Can Do culture. I mean that if you are a poor Thai, there is NO expectation that you can rise above your status. There are even a lot of cultural barriers to this, even if you have the skill. So why bother?

I don't generally believe that hidden conspiracies exist. They are too difficult to keep hidden.

But that being said, I would be quite curious to hear what you did, Razin.

The Chinese haven't always been the big men on the Asian campus, Expat. Whenever they have come into military conflict with the Japanese they have been dominated, historically speaking.

You mean by kamakazes, right? China tried for millenia to take over Vietnam and never did it, either, but that hardly means that Vietnam was a big man on campus or even a power player. Just a lot of swampland - rough terrain thats difficult to invade. Japan is an island. A lot harder to invade.

The last hundred years means nothing. History is a lot longer than that.

Jpan and Vietnam aside, China dominated most of Asia, and, more importantly, was by far the most imoprtant economic and cultural power in the region.

Not all power is with a sword, my friend.

If by "Dominated most of Asia" you mean "Fractured into multiple fiefdoms constantly at war with one another, failed in most all it's attempts to expand it's power outside it's own borders, was reguarly ravaged by the Mongol hordes, and was then more or less divided up into territories by the western powers basically at will"

Than I suppose we could agree.

But I tend to have a higher standard for what I measure greatness to be. The Japanese Empire rose from being a literally medieval society (While at the same time resisting western imperialism, a feat in and of itself.) to be the equal of the any European power in the span of a few decades. And since this is the early 1900s we are talking about, that means the equal of any military power in the world. If not for World War II the Japanese Empire would still dominate the South Pacific and probablly control much of China.

I tend to measure dominance by one's ability to effectively dominate. That's a hand the Japanese win.

Again, thats hardly old news. We ARE talking about history here. That is, indeed a hand the japanese win, but the card game has been going on for a LONG time.

Yuo may notice that the repeated Mongol invasions, while periodically successful, all ultimately resulted in the Mongols becoming, for all intents and purposes, Chinese.

And? Did the Persian empire then win final dominance over the Greeks? Did the Greeks win final dominance over the Romans?

We still aren't talking about China's military control over Thailand.

That's because I am entirely uninterested in the topic the thread was posted about. If I was, I would have addressed it. I am interested in an assertion you made, and chose to reply to it.

No, actually you are replying to something else. The assertion I made was on-topic.

"China is now and has been the 800 lb gorilla on the block for a LOOONG time, with the exception of a few Khans ... In the 1500s, the Chinese sent a fleet of 30K soldiers around to "negotiate" trade deals, and they sailed up the Chao Phrya more than once. (can't remember the size of Teddy Roosevelt's Great White Fleet, but it was not much more than 10K, as a comparison)" -You

I replied to that.

yes - and I meant more than military then, too. Granted, the line about the Khans was misleading - although I did want to pay some respect to Genghis. But even the Khans fell to China's cultural influence.

The fleet of 30K soldiers directly refers to non-military influence, beliee it or not. Yes, it was a strongarm tactic, but the influence they developed was in business and trade, not in setting up tributaries. Since the topic of the thread has more to do with that....

Oh come now. Using 30,000 soldiers to force nations into trade agreements is a military tactic.

A show of force, yes, but thats the use of the military to support China's BUSINESS influence. China was not setting up a tributary - the countries visited - all the way to Somalia, were not attacked and by all accounts the Chinese were very polite and dilpomatic.

They set up trade deals and relationships that lasted through China's isolation. Yes, China had soldiers, and yes, this is important, but the subjcet isn't China militarily controlling Thailand - they don't and won't.

Its about power and control, though - and there are a lot more awys to do that than with a gun or a sword.

It's nice that they were very polite. But there is no question what would have happened if things had gotten ugly.

30,000 soldiers with 30,000 shields and 30,000 spears weren't there for no reason.

Well, Ayudya was over 1 million people at the time. 30K soldiers wouldn't have cut it. Of course, it would have taken a massive effort for Thailand to do the same thing, so it DID demonstrate Chinse power. Like the Great White Fleet, it was just for show. (The great white fleet was 10K soldiers, I think)

Yes. A show of military power. To make it very clear what China could do to nations that weren't so keen on joining China's trade empire.

You aren't seeing the forest for the trees, my friend. My very point is that the military isn't the end all and be all of power and influence.

Of course it isn't. How many times have I stated that economic power is the only power?

I'm sorry, I had come in assuming we were having a conversation above a second grade level. I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions.

I do believe you are the one who chastises people for making ad hominem attacks, and claim you never make them.

Above a second grade level? Come on. First you talk about nothing more than military power - even going so far as to say that China's influence in the region is limited because they've been conquored a couple of times. You latch on to the military aspect of China's trade expidition, and don't let go, even though the topic is expicitly *not* about military power.

Now you say that there is no power BUT economic, and refer to me as a mental second grader. Do I understand that right?

To opinion #1, currently about 60% of the total Thai population have chinese blood. Roughly 90% of the population are also literate. I got these informations about 15 years ago when I was still in grade school. So, theoretically I don't think it's possible that the kind of discrimination still exist today. I'm a third generation chinese decendent that lives in Thailand. I was born and raised in Thailand. Although, I have no Thai blood, my friends can not tell me that I am chinese if I hadn't told them. I can assure you that your fellow farang's theory is flawed.

Its not so much anti-Chinese theory so much as it is anti-Thai .... I don't hold much stock in the "keeping the Thai down" aspect of the theory, but it does make sense that Chinese interests control a lot of Thai economic activity, and it also makes sense that they would want to maintain this. also there is a great deal of anti-Thai discrimination in the rest of Asia - especially among HK chinese, but general among the rest of northern Asia.

No, I inferred that the conversation was of a 2nd grade level, which it seemingly is. I never said there was no power but military, you projected that onto me. I said that dominance is defined by the ability to dominate. That has to do with economic power much more than military power.

You are absolutely right Razin. There is no freedom of speech in a country like Thailand. I got kicked out from Thailand Forum sooo many times for posting intellectual arguments about Thailand Government and Thai Monarchy. Talking about Monarchy (any kinds of Monarchy) was just impossible on the Thai boards and it sucks like hell. However, i foolishly and accidentally got inside a Forum about Thailand that happens to be in Thailand or owns by somebody who is Thai. I just recently registered for this forum and i hope that this is not just another Thai forum owns by Thais or its government. Unfortunately, it seems as if there is no forum rule on this forum because the website of bearpit.net forum rule does not show anything and i also hope that talking about Thai politics and Monarchy or Socialism or Marxism is allowed in this forum. The style design of this forum looks exactly the same as Thailand Forum and i feared that free speech is not allowed in here. Well, let me tell you why: I was saying Thailand has characteristics of an Abosolute Monarchy Country which is a very old, regime, primitive form of government while it represents certain democratic principles/values such as free election of its sub-government or its Prime Minister. In Thailand, if you make any kinds of negative comments about Monarchy, you can get youself kill if you are Thai, or if you are a foreigner then you would be kicked out from Thailand and your visa would be invalid. Basically, Thailand is still a regime country that violates the Freedom of Speech or there is no First Ammenmend. Thanks for making this topic.

Interesting that two guys (?) show up the same day with almost the same theme. Interesting.

What would you like to be discussed here? I'm certainly NOT an authority on Thailand so can't help you there.

Opps! I see that this is an old thread and revived again by one the "two guys" of which I was speaking. So, just ignore my question.

It is not soo old and who cares about how old it is as long as it concerns with the thread. Please noted that i made my comments also as a new prime thread. Isn't wonderful? It gives the right information about Thailand government. So people can continue their arguments on this topic and technically, i made it new.

K.

Enjoy.

Join in on the fracuses here. And, there are many

For anyone who are concerns about the oldness of this thread: Please visit my new prime thread that may explain more to this mystery of the land of smile:
Thread: "Thailand as an Absolute Monarchy!".

Well, SoloNav, i am still a classic example of those who are interested in some of the old threads because of its arguments and not because of its oldness. The last poster was recently here on October of 2005, so it is only 2 months ago and i believe there are still many people who will be here just like you.

Chill out dude! There is no fraccuses in here. Go and enjoy your own fraccuses then.

I'm confused by your response here. You've not been here long enough to decide whether or not there are fracuses here. There are, believe me! ANd, I'm not a dude. Notice my avatar. I don't have a pink-eye, though.

Ok. There might be but for me it is not fraccuses since it is based on my opinions and from my view point, they are not fracas. Tell me why they fraccuses. Everyone wants to hear your views in the name of freedom and not like that sucky thailand forum.

Well, young man. And, I do suppose that you are a young man. I'm not talking about YOUR viewpoints. I have no IDEA what your VIEWPOINTS are or than the first one. I was talking about the behavior of people on THIS forum.

And, there are fracuses on this board. As I said...........read some of the threads. I won't name them, but they get pretty rough.

So. Chill! Quit being so defensive. It very off-putting and makes at least me not want to talk with you because I might get MY head chewed off after an innocent remark. He11, I don't even know you enough to make an offensive remark. I was trying to be hospitable and you jump down my throat. Sheesh!

You are NOT ON A THAI BOARD, having to defend your every breath or thought, OK????

Thanks for calling me young man but i am not quite young. i did not say that you got to agree or talk about my viewpoint. Talk about your view point then. Hey, chill out dude, i am not accusing anyone and i did not kill anyone in here. you got a problem with my comments? you got a problem with my Thread? whats wrong with my thread? Really?!!! was it too rough for you then im sorry, thats what forum is all about. it is about HARD TALK. Did i cut your throat? haha you must be kidding me. Thanks for being hospitable and i appreciated that as well as the original poster of this thread.

Like on other posts, I would not waist my time replying to your none sense. It is a waist of time.

Your life-expectancy on here may be not as long as you may imagine then...
Don't come here looking for a fight - khao jai mai krap?

Actually, I have come to the exact same conclusion. - although with a slightly different spelling...

But boon me is right - don't come looking for a fight - come looking to freely debate ideas - even about the Thai Monarchy. I have my own views on the subject, mostly positive, actually. The Thai monarchs have been quite skilled, in general. Much in contrast to our current leadership

SO - if you want to debate an idea, please put forth your ideas clearly and concisely, and let the debate follow.

If you just want to talk about how other people don't want to hear what you have to say, then Boon Mee is quite right - you won't last here. But, please take note that there are a variet of viewpoints regularly expresssed here with, IMHO varying amounts of rationality and connectedness to the real world. People may flame you, but will listen and debate you, just so long as you are presenting IDEAS, not FLAMES. Thats the key difference.

So welcome and have fun! I look forward to debating with you.

You're a day late and a dollar short Expat. It is probably the Gent, someone who was here before your time.

Chinese organized a huge fleet which reach to the east coast of Africa and all over the Southeast Asia in several time hundreds years before.
But no much confict with the locals.The only recorded confict was when the fleet full of china and silk was assaulted by pirate.

One example:The fleet went to Indonesia and the cacique of the land attack the merchant of the fleet by mistake.Hundreds of Chinese were killed in the accident.But commander not revenged for it ,but he send his diplomat to negotiation with the cacique and signed a firendship agreement.This is a ture story.Think about the westerner,even Fernando de Magallanes recognized as a villain(dude?).
--
No evidence can support the rumor of "Thailland is under control of Chinese".Althought prime minister of Thailand is a descendent of Chinese.He is a real Thail.