Question for Liberals: Does the ACLU ever go too far?

If you can't find 5 times that the ACLU has over reached and actively worked against America, you aren't trying hard enough.
Start with NAMBLA and go from there...

Let's see:
Remove prayer from schools
Remove prayer from school football games
Remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance
Always on red alert when Creation is taught in school (even as an elective philosophy class)
Removing nativity scenes from government properties
Fogetting/eliminated the second part of the religion clause in the 1st Amendment ("or prohibit the free exercise thereof")

There's been a lot of school shootings the past few years. Ever wonder why? Have anything to do with removing God from the school systems?

I don't care what anyone says or thinks, America and the Constitution are based on Christian principles. That is quite clear.

Yes, let us sign up to be called names, have our intelligence attacked, etc. by saying this nation was built upon religion, namely Judeo-Christian values. But, these attacks will be from the unbiased and open-minded left. HA!

That's right. If they want to pray in schools, let them join a parochial institution - not a state controlled one.

Sorry. Once again those high school games are mostly played on public land.

That is because that it is more of a prayer than a statement of allegiance to your country. Some people may have more allegiance to God than the state, while others profess to no allegiance to a God. Here is a brief history of the pledge of allegiance.

Well ACLU or no ACLU - you can blame the religious right for turning Creationism into a religion by alluding to a sectarian reference, while they are teaching the idea.

Want a nativity scene? Ever consider your own property?

That is nonsense; that is not going on.

Do I ever wonder why? Of course I do! Contact your (GOP) Representative, and tell them to get out of bed with the NRA.

If what you state is true, then I have some questions to ask you.

How far do these Christian principles reach? Do they go all the way? If yes, then why is it that we allow people to practice other religions in this country? Don't true Christians believe in one God and will NOT adhere to other
religions?

There is no doubt that our forefathers were Christians. But were they really wearing their religion upon their sleeves when they made the Constitution?

Well SkiGuy, Solo, and other readers, can you not think of a better reason to have School Vouchers? Can you not think of a better reason to severly curtail the power of public school?

After all the Grizz is only doing what his secular little brain is programed to do: seperate religion from the State, as if this country was never that way. Of course, those such as Grizzly, have never bothered with American History, or simply don't want Christianity to continue to flourish. Take you pick, it doesn't matter.

And guess what is the preferred method to slice away tradition? If you say the ACLU, YOU WIN!!! That is why I loath the ACLU with all my fibre. It is the most G-dless institution, led by some of the most G-dless people in the US. George Soros, and Peter Louis are the most loathful individuals one can find, and Surprise, Surprise!, they are both G-dless, Secular, Ashkenazi Jews.

May G-d D@mn them all! And I say the same with anyone who would support, much less join, such a dastardly organization.

Are you reading this Grizz? And you call yourself a Christian? Give me a break!

Hmm... find it strange that you did not wish to address anything in this post, John.

Oh, I addressed it alright! You simply wish for me to rehash what I have done over and over, time after time. I merely cut to the Chase.

You should be ashamed of yourself, supporting such a reprehensible organization. One is known via the company one keeps.

I find everything Grizzly wrote to be correct and he even gave the benefit of the doubt to the US being founded on Christianity. I will go one step further and say it isn't.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

Some interesting reading! Thanks!

How can the ACLU go TOO FAR in their fight to save American FREEDOM and LIBERTY from the ruling fascisti?

Oh yeah, that's one of those sites that crap all over the Declaration of Independence

Here's one that doesn't
http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html
Especially like the last paragraph myself.

For the life of me, I simply can't understand how anyone in their right mind, can even begin to think that Christianity and the Founders don't go hand in hand. It simply amazed me. And to come up with links such as our latest Leftie has to show, is a classic example of either intellectual laziness, or intellectual dishonesty.

Tatuara is the latest of the BRAIN DAMAGED individuals here. I wonder if he actually believes the drivel he spews out. And worst of all is how Grizzly acts so innocent, and suddenly informed with his statements like, "Some Interesting Readint. Thanks ". What utter nonsense!

What causes this state of affairs? BRAIN DAMAGE! That's what.

You wouldn't know what a Fascist was, even it came up and placed it's foot squarely up your "Bottom" TQ. What the Sh!t do you know about the Price of Eggs in China?

Well, I do know about the price of eggs in Thailand.

Reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote:

"I love talking about nothing. It is the only thing I know anything about."

Ever wonder why homophobic men are so obsessed with anal sex?

Since when has the word "God" been equivocal to christianity. The author of your link, Tex Browning cannot distinguish between the two and obviously you can't. Did you not remember this quote from my link or is it that you don't understand it.

from your link:
Yes but not all, and even if they were all christians they had the knowledge not to offend anyone else who held other or non religious views. The US secular government allows free expression of all religions and non religion. You will find quotes by some founding fathers referring to christianity and you will find other founding fathers who made no mention of Christianity at all. The quotes from 1854 and 1858 are well beyond the time of the founding fathers.

Because they were not all Christians, Why is that so hard to grasp.

Yes I can see that you meticulously over his argument and proved all the glaring inaccuraccies. Just labeling something "left" does not validate your conclusions. And you bring up intellectual laziness. Too funny.

You can't attack the message so you attack the messenger. I think it is time to refer to this page again.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/inferior_right_angles.html

It's not mandatory, how is this unconstitutional?


So what's the big deal??


Again, what's the big deal that "under God" is in it? Because some atheist doesn't like it?



I do, but if I donated one to city hall I would be PROHIBITED from displaying it.



From aclu.org. The "mission"

"The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state."

Where's the second part?? "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
So, it IS gong on.


Because we are not Iran.

How does having a nativity scene on city hall property prohibit other religions? The ACLU prohibits the United States from practicing it's own culture (unless you disagree that Christmas/Hanukkah are not part of American culture).

Fine. If its not mandatory, perhaps you could get the 'religious right' to stop fighting something that is not mandatory! (Scene: In a public school auditorium, the principal says, "let us stand and pray.")

You're not trying to make it mandatory, are you?

The key word here is PUBLIC; this means that it belongs to EVERYONE - not to just one sect.

Remember the key word being PUBLIC schools. Now I would like to ask you a question. How would you feel to hear some person in a public school recite the pledge of allegiance as "one nation under Allah or Buddha or Yahweh,"? - while you're saying God? I know a few people, that are Christians, that would oppose that for sure.

Well here is another question for you. Someone donates a statue of Buddha, and they wish to have it displayed during the same time your nativity scene is displayed. How would you feel about that as a Christian?


It does say - freedom of speech! And that is really the important part! Now, the reason they do not include the part, 'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', is because they would then be expected to do something about just anything at all!

Lets face it; how would you feel about someone standing outside your house at 2am speaking over a loudspeaker.

Well I do not see how that statement can answer what I originally asked:



Especially the underlined part.

The basis for removing prayer from public school is based on a faulty assumption, that there is to be found, in any passage in the United States Federal Constitution, a wall between Church and State.

Anti-religious groups often attempt to establish a wall between Church and State by citing the first amendment, which reads as follows:



This amendment was meant not to establish a wall between the Church and the State, but to prevent Congress from establishing a national religion over the country, in the way that the British monarchy had done with the Anglican Church.

It was also understood at the time of the founding, though it is less so now, that when there is a conflict inside a state between the federal constitution and the state constituion, the constitution of that state takes precedence. The federal constituion is meant only to govern the actions of the federal government. At the time of the founding, multiple states had their own established churches.

Having prayer in school is no way the same thing as Congress passing law that establishes a state church, and as such is not in any way, shape, or form, unconstitutional.

However as most of you undoubtedly are aware, I find that to be a secondary greivance, my main problem being with the existance of the U.S department of education in the first place.

As for the comment on Judeo-Christian values, all of Western Civilization is shaped by the moral structure that came about from the so called "Grand Synthesis" which referred to the merging of Judaic and Greco-Roman moral values in the early Christian church, best personified by Saint Augustine and, much later, by Saint Thomas Aquinas. If you would like to find a society not shaped by the Judeo-Christian worldview, you will be forced to look outside the borders of the west. And, with the phenomenon of globalization, even that is becoming rapidly invalid. The last places on Earth where you can truly find societies that are not Judeo-Christian in nature are most likely the Islamist Middle East, sub-saharan Africa, and North Korea.

You're kidding, right? That is an absolutely asinine statement.

Just for the sake of argument, can you name any of your "not all Christians" here?



It is no big deal what G-d is called. If in the presence of Muslims, then Allah is ok. And Buddha is not a religion that believes in a g-d. It is a faith that is different. And as for Yahweh, I hear it all the time. In fact, I have used that and Yesuha as well. Believe me, I am not offended. The only ones who offend me are the Secular Humanists, who would destroy our practice, in order to enforce their practice on US. And you are doing a great job of helping them Grizz.



Again, I don't see the relevence, but I could even go along with that. However, since Buddah is a discipline, rathere than a religion, if Buddists wished to participate in Christian pagents, fine with me. Most of us are all inclusive.



Now, what in the Sam Hill is that supposed to represent? That makes absolutely NO sense at all Grizz. could you rephrase this, as to make it intelligable?



That is ABSOLUTELY correct! What part about that don't these Brilliant Savants understand? I suggest that it is not ignorance or stupitidy that is driving this subject. Rather, it is a malicious desire to destroy something that carries along with it the underpining of Moral value, that this country has been founded upon. Destroy the Moral bedrock, and you can change society to what you wish.

Isn't that right Grizz?

Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation. This is from the Treaty of Tripoli.


http://www.nobeliefs.com/document.htm


Someone on another forum said it best with this:

One more time. Just for the sake of agrument, can you name any of your "not all Christians" here?

Well, see, Grizzly. Christmas is about the birth of Jesus. If Buddha's birth date is like March 4th or something and you guys want to put a Buddha statue on public land during the Buddha season, hey, go for it.
I have a problem because you'd only want to put a Buddha with a creche during Christmas season out of spite. I'm asking for the creche during Christmas, not year round. Why should this even concern the ACLU in the first place? It's ridiculous. The ACLU, and it's worshippers, only want to cause division and stifle the culture of Americans and have an extremely one-sided interpretation of the Constitution. That's their agenda.

Still waiting for that list too, Tuatara.

Thomas Jefferson for one
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical.../chapter_2.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/jefferson_deist.htm

others have not been proven whether or not but after reading these quotes I would say they are deists.
http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html

Wrong again.
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm

Yes, I know about his quotes, but the fact remains that he was basically not a fundamentalist. He naturally had a skeptical eye to much that was written in the Bible. The same with me. If you go back and find the arguments I have had with Solonav and SkiGuy, you will see that I too would be considered a nonreligious person by many. However, I am not.

If you would clasify him as a non-Christian, then why did he not shun church? I know for a fact that he attended. He was, to be exacting, a skeptic of literal interpretation. Plus, he was highly critical of what others did in the name of the church. Remember, he lived only 100 years from the Inquisition and when people were burned at the stake for being witches. This is what he was referring to, and he had just cause.

Anyway, all the things he has stated should be placed in a chronological context, as to when he stated them. Even I once rebelled and turned away from my religion. Does that make me any lesser a Christian. Hardly!

Pehaps you can rustle up some other Founders who were not Christian.

Creationism should be taught by the church. Every church I've attended did an excellent job at teaching creation. Should I ask my church to explain Darwin's theory of evolution to me? You don't ask your electrician to explain the plumbing do you?

OK, I'll change that to "ACLU is always on alert when the Bible is taught in public school even as an elective." We can't have that now, huh?

http://www.stoptheaclu.org/

How about each teaching their theory, plus a critique of the other? That would seem to be the more rounded.

IMHO: That is where it should be taught. (Parochial schools too.)

Well, back to NAMBLA for a minute...let's see how Grizz and TQ can defend that sorry organization...

The ACLU does not support NAMBLA.

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11289prs20000831.html

Typical right wing red baiting ploy. Are you teaming up with SoloNav now?
Kind of like the question: WHEN DID YOU STOP BEATING YOUR WIFE?

Historically, the ACLU has supported NAMBLA.
Whether or not, Taxachussests no longer does...

They have supported their right to FREE SPEECH.
Same with the NAZIS.
Don't you believe in FREE SPEECH?

The distribution of information on how to go about victimizing children should not be protected speech. It is just plain wrong. The ACLU's ivory tower stand will encourage and enable those who would harm others. You can't go into a crowded theater and yell "Fire." This, to me, is no different , but so much worst. Shame on the ACLU, shame on anyone that agrees with them.

Free speech should not really be the issue. It should be "responsible" speech. Defending an orgainzation that promotes child molestation is not responsible, just as supporting one who cries Fire in the middle of a theatre is not responsible speech.

TQ, if you honestly believe support of NAMBLA to be a free speech issue, you are in serious need of some more wisdom. Sorry, but true.

I don't like Nazis or Nambla, but by protecting the free speech of the extremes, we protect the free speech for everyone else.
That is the brilliance of the LIBERAL vision that animates the greatest pro liberty organization in the USA, the ACLU.

Yeah, right! LOL, what a crock of BULL!!

Hey, you are entitled you your opinion, and we all know what opinions are like?

Free speech? I feel a case of whiplash coming on.

I couldn't say it any better myself, TQ.

When a great number of people start to limit speech on those that most people would not agree with anyway, how much longer before the majority starts to realize that it will affect them as well?

So you're saying the ACLU will represent the majority at some point?

I would explain this in depth but...

The funny part is: they may very well have too!

HOLY CRAP!! The Declaration of Independence says "Creator" You guys better get to work and remove that. Isn't it "in violation of your civil rights because it forces the fundie religious right Nazis' idealogies right over that wall and into your personnal lives" How DARE they have that word there. Better take that document out of all public schools now!

The Declaration of Independance is not a law; it is a de*clar*ation.

I know that. I just love giving you a hard time about the All Communist Lawyers Union.

Errrrrrr, but the originators were "declaring" that a Creator created. Correct?

They sure were!!
I'm sure they knew America was going to be based on Judeo-Christian principles and culture.

Hmm, so does that mean the ACLU is trying to remove American culture??

Oh! I get it! ACLU! (All Communists Lawyers Union)

This coming from a person that uses the Declaration of Independence as a paradigm in an argument surrounding the ACLU; then I reply with: complete with a definition, I may add; then your retort:

<Warning: Sarcasm:Incoming!>I must say that really does make a lot of sense to me, SkiGuy. But whatever you're comfortable with!