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John L
It looks like the ACLU is up to it's usual tricks, and the Grizz will be out shoveling the fecal matter for them before long. this is really interesting. Let me know what your take is on this one.


ACLU Sues to Let Muslim Scholar Enter US.


NEW YORK - The American Civil Liberties Union sued the U.S. government Wednesday for preventing a Muslim scholar from entering the country, arguing that the government was using anti-terrorism laws as “instruments of censorship.”

The lawsuit asks the court to find a provision of the Patriot Act unconstitutional and seeks clearance for Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss intellectual and Muslim scholar, to accept invitations to speak in the United States.

Ramadan was blocked from accepting a tenured teaching position at the University of Notre Dame when his visa was revoked in August 2004 because of a provision of the Patriot Act, said Jameel Jaffer, an ACLU staff attorney.

Jaffer said it was part of an effort by the federal government to bar foreign scholars whose political views might be contrary to those of the U.S. government. The provision blocks entry to the country for prominent aliens who used their status to endorse or espouse terrorism or to persuade others to terrorist activity, he said.

“We don’t think there’s any evidence at all that he has endorsed terrorism,” Jaffer said. “In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that he has condemned terrorism.”

Now, Here is what Daniel Pipes has to say about this fellow. And after you have read both articles, which do you believe, Daniel Pipes, or your lying eyes?


Why Revoke Tariq Ramadan's U.S. Visa?
by Daniel Pipes

It's not every day that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security revokes a visa issued to a Swiss-national scholar scheduled to teach at one of America's premier universities. But this has just happened, and it's a good thing too.

The Swiss scholar is Tariq Ramadan. He is Islamist royalty – his maternal grandfather, Hasan al-Banna, founded the Muslim Brotherhood, probably the single most powerful Islamist institution of the twentieth century, in Egypt in 1928. Tariq is a Swiss citizen because his father, Sa‘id Ramadan, also a leading Islamist, fled from Egypt in 1954 following a crackdown on the brotherhood. Sa‘id reached Geneva in 1958, where Tariq was born in 1962.

Thanks to his pedigree and his talents, Tariq has emerged as a significant force in his own right. Symbolic of this, Time magazine in April named him one of the world's top hundred scientists and thinkers. And so, when Notre Dame University went looking for a Henry R. Luce professor of religion, conflict and peacebuilding, it unsurprisingly settled on Mr. Ramadan.

Its offer was made and accepted by the beginning of 2004; a work visa followed in February. Mr. Ramadan bought a house, found schools for his four children, and dispatched his personal effects to South Bend, Indiana. He was supposed to start teaching a few days ago.

But on July 28, just nine days before the Ramadans were to leave for America, Mr. Ramadan was informed that the Department of Homeland Security had revoked his work visa. A DHS spokesman, Russ Knocke, later explained this had been done in accord with a law that denies entry to aliens who have used a "position of prominence within any country to endorse or espouse terrorist activity." The revocation, Mr. Knocke added, was based on "public safety or national security interests."

Of course, Mr. Ramadan dismisses the revocation as "unjustified" and due to "political pressure." He even blames me for the DHS decision.

What's up? The DHS knows much more than I do, but it is not talking. A review of the press, however, gives an idea of what the problem is. Here are some reasons why Mr. Ramadan might have been kept out:

*He has praised the brutal Islamist policies of the Sudanese politician Hassan Al-Turabi. Mr. Turabi in turn called Mr. Ramadan the "future of Islam."

*Mr. Ramadan was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.

*Ahmed Brahim, an Algerian indicted for Al-Qaeda activities, had "routine contacts" with Mr. Ramadan, according to a Spanish judge (Baltasar Garzón) in 1999.

*Djamel Beghal, leader of a group accused of planning to attack the American embassy in Paris, stated in his 2001 trial that he had studied with Mr. Ramadan.

*Along with nearly all Islamists, Mr. Ramadan has denied that there is "any certain proof" that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.

*He publicly refers to the Islamist atrocities of 9/11, Bali, and Madrid as "interventions," minimizing them to the point of near-endorsement.

And here are other reasons, dug up by Jean-Charles Brisard, a former French intelligence officer doing work for some of the 9/11 families, as reported in Le Parisien:

*Intelligence agencies suspect that Mr. Ramadan (along with his brother Hani) coordinated a meeting at the Hôtel Penta in Geneva for Ayman al-Zawahiri, deputy head of Al-Qaeda, and Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh, now in a Minnesota prison.

*Mr. Ramadan's address appears in a register of Al Taqwa Bank, an organization the State Department accuses of supporting Islamist terrorism.

Then there is the intriguing possibility, reported by Olivier Guitta, that Osama bin Laden studied with Tariq's father in Geneva, suggesting that the future terrorist and the future scholar might have known each other.

Ramadan denies all ties to terrorism, but the pattern is clear. As Lee Smith writes in The American Prospect, he is a cold-blooded Islamist whose "cry of death to the West is a quieter and gentler jihad, but it's still jihad."

These reasons explain why Americans should thank DHS for keeping Tariq Ramadan out of America.

But the story is not over: the State Department has in effect encouraged Ramadan to reapply for a different type of visa, making the recent developments probably just round one of a drawn-out match.

________

For more on Ramadan's visa revocation, see the excellent articles on him by Fouad Ajami and Stephen Schwartz.

In addition, I have written follow-up weblog entries about Ramadan at "Tariq Ramadan, the Chicago Tribune, and Me," "Tariq Ramadan Exposed," and "Tariq Ramadan Gives Up."

So now it looks as though the ACLU is going to carry his water for him. This should be worth watching, as the ACLU has been losing more than it has been winning lately. Perhaps the ACLU is finally getting it's Just Deserts. Let's hope so.

wink.gif
SkiGuy
Before Grizz even replies to this I'll say to him "Are you out of your freaking mind?!?"
John L
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 27 2006, 07:53 AM)
Before Grizz even replies to this I'll say to him "Are you out of your freaking mind?!?"
*


I will answer that one. In a word,................Yes!
SoloNav
Doesn't ACLU mean "American Civil Liberties Union"? So, now ACLU is looking out for the civil liberties of everyone on this earth?

Perhaps the name should be World ( Intentionally Traitorous, Harmful, Outrageous, and Unctuously Terrifying) Civil Liberties Union, WITHOUTACLU.

I'd call this rather subversive any way one looks at this.
Stealth
QUOTE (John L @ Jan 27 2006, 04:50 AM)
It looks like the ACLU is up to it's usual tricks, and the Grizz will be out shoveling the fecal matter for them before long.  this is really interesting.  Let me know what your take is on this one.
...What's up? The DHS knows much more than I do, but it is not talking. A review of the press, however, gives an idea of what the problem is. Here are some reasons why Mr. Ramadan might have been kept out:
         
*He has praised the brutal Islamist policies of the Sudanese politician Hassan Al-Turabi. Mr. Turabi in turn called Mr. Ramadan the "future of Islam."
         
*Mr. Ramadan was banned from entering France in 1996 on suspicion of having links with an Algerian Islamist who had recently initiated a terrorist campaign in Paris.
         
*Ahmed Brahim, an Algerian indicted for Al-Qaeda activities, had "routine contacts" with Mr. Ramadan, according to a Spanish judge (Baltasar Garzón) in 1999.
         
*Djamel Beghal, leader of a group accused of planning to attack the American embassy in Paris, stated in his 2001 trial that he had studied with Mr. Ramadan.
         
*Along with nearly all Islamists, Mr. Ramadan has denied that there is "any certain proof" that Bin Laden was behind 9/11.
         
*He publicly refers to the Islamist atrocities of 9/11, Bali, and Madrid as "interventions," minimizing them to the point of near-endorsement.

And here are other reasons, dug up by Jean-Charles Brisard, a former French intelligence officer doing work for some of the 9/11 families, as reported in Le Parisien:
         
*Intelligence agencies suspect that Mr. Ramadan (along with his brother Hani) coordinated a meeting at the Hôtel Penta in Geneva for Ayman al-Zawahiri, deputy head of Al-Qaeda, and Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh, now in a Minnesota prison.
         
*Mr. Ramadan's address appears in a register of Al Taqwa Bank, an organization the State Department accuses of supporting Islamist terrorism.

Then there is the intriguing possibility, reported by Olivier Guitta, that Osama bin Laden studied with Tariq's father in Geneva, suggesting that the future terrorist and the future scholar might have known each other.

Ramadan denies all ties to terrorism, but the pattern is clear. As Lee Smith writes in The American Prospect, he is a cold-blooded Islamist whose "cry of death to the West is a quieter and gentler jihad, but it's still jihad."

These reasons explain why Americans should thank DHS for keeping Tariq Ramadan out of America.

But the story is not over: the State Department has in effect encouraged Ramadan to reapply for a different type of visa, making the recent developments probably just round one of a drawn-out match.

________

For more on Ramadan's visa revocation, see the excellent articles on him by Fouad Ajami and Stephen Schwartz.

In addition, I have written follow-up weblog entries about Ramadan at "Tariq Ramadan, the Chicago Tribune, and Me," "Tariq Ramadan Exposed," and "Tariq Ramadan Gives Up."

So now it looks as though the ACLU is going to carry his water for him.  This should be worth watching, as the ACLU has been losing more than it has been winning lately.  Perhaps the ACLU is finally getting it's Just Deserts.  Let's hope so.
wink.gif
*


I had read this article before somewhere. If Jihad were an iceberg Tariq Ramadan would a part of the exposed portion. The smillie face of Jihad. The U.S. was correct in not allowing him into the country. The ACLU yet again is an advocate for evil, so it can defend the virtue of the Ivory Tower. Actually, I think the ACLU is evil in and of itself. Sometimes the Tower must step aside for the practical.
Tariq Ramadan, and those like him should be shunned. biggrin.gif
GreyMan
QUOTE (Stealth @ Jan 27 2006, 03:37 PM)
I had read this article before somewhere. If Jihad were an iceberg Tariq Ramadan would a part of the exposed portion. The smillie face of Jihad. The U.S. was correct in not allowing him into the country. The ACLU yet again is an advocate for evil, so it can defend the virtue of the Ivory Tower. Actually, I think the ACLU is evil in and of itself. Sometimes the Tower must step aside for the practical.
Tariq Ramadan, and those like him should be shunned. biggrin.gif
*



I love watching the circle of ignorance in this place. Like AI Jane and their brain dead brethen why don't you all do a little individual research and check out just what the ACLU stands for?

I'll make it easy - here - read this the information provided on this link I've listed below. One of the reasons for the first amendment is the right for citizens to speak out against our goverment if we see it doing things we feel are wrong, immoral or over being overzealous in the quest for even more powers over us - the people of the United States of America. I never heard anyone in here complaining so loudly about people attacking a democratic president as you are when anyone speaks aout against the current administration.

Must be somehting in the air.

Well my friends - the ACLU is there to protect your rights to march as mindlessly as you want to the drum of this president as he slowly takes away our consitutionally granted rights.

Here is the link - look it up and take a look at their history and the cases they have worked for both sides of any issue.

ACLU Website

Try marching to the truth for once and don't let it be fed to you by a bunch of morons.
Tuatara
Why are members here against freedom of speech. Are they afraid of what Tariq Ramadan might say. It seems they would rather let their fears overtake their ability to listen.
GreyMan
QUOTE (Tuatara @ Jan 28 2006, 02:03 PM)
Why are members here against freedom of speech. Are they afraid of what Tariq Ramadan might say. It seems they would rather let their fears overtake their ability to listen.
*


Simple - most in here have serious facist tendencies. They like the idea of an all powerful government and seem to enjoy trading security and giving the rights our forefathers died for in order to ensure that the idea of a truly free and open society remains more than an Ideal.

Most people in here - have no clue what the ACLU stands for. All they can do is mindlessly parrot their leaders in the right wing circle of hell. And heaven forbid anyone from another country has the audacity to speak out against the United States and it's current govenment.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 28 2006, 08:49 PM)
Simple - most in here have serious facist tendencies. They like the idea of an all powerful government and seem to enjoy trading security and giving the rights our forefathers died for in order to ensure that the idea of a truly free and open society remains more than an Ideal.

Most people in here - have no clue what the ACLU stands for. All they can do is mindlessly parrot their leaders in the right wing circle of hell. And heaven forbid anyone from another country has the audacity to speak out against the United States and it's current govenment.
*

Facist is going a bit too far. Islam is an anti Christian religion, it is a religion that promotes their followers to go to war and destroy all enemies of Islam. Christianity does not teach it's followers to destroy our enemies, God will do that himself.
The ACLU is an anti Christian organization. It promotes other religions, including atheism, while removing Christianity.
Tuatara
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 28 2006, 07:11 PM)
Facist is going a bit too far.  Islam is an anti Christian religion, it is a religion that promotes their followers to go to war and destroy all enemies of Islam. Christianity does not teach it's followers to destroy our enemies, God will do that himself.
The ACLU is an anti Christian organization.   It promotes other religions, including atheism, while removing Christianity.
*

I'm willing to bet more people on this planet have died in the name of Christianity than of Islam. And when Bush uses the word "crusade" and drops bombs in Iraq that's a lot more killed than every suicide bomber ever amassed.

Atheism is not a religion. Do you feel these people do not have rights?
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 28 2006, 07:11 PM)
Facist is going a bit too far.  Islam is an anti Christian religion, it is a religion that promotes their followers to go to war and destroy all enemies of Islam. Christianity does not teach it's followers to destroy our enemies, God will do that himself.
The ACLU is an anti Christian organization.   It promotes other religions, including atheism, while removing Christianity.
*



Okay - I'll bite. Let's see some proof of this. Come on - let's see the proof as you seem to know this for certain.

Also - under the guise of Christianity more people have indeed been kiiled than under all the other religions combined. Read your history. It was one of the most preditory religions of all time. It by far surpassed the islamics and all of their competition by far.

Under the centuries of crusdaes more people died in the name of Christ than in any time in History. The inquistions, the witch burnings, various holy wars, terrorists acts by Christians against other Christians - wars in the name of religion are all just a taste of what Christianity has done for the world. Mixed with the good has been almost 2,000 years of my religon is better than yours and people always seem willing to prove this little fact by killing others who do not.
Nomad
QUOTE (Tuatara @ Jan 28 2006, 07:20 PM)
I'm willing to bet more people on this planet have died in the name of Christianity than of Islam.
*


Then prove it. If you can................................


popcorn.gif popcorn.gif popcorn.gif
Nomad
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 28 2006, 08:16 PM)
Also - under the guise of Christianity more people have indeed been kiiled than under all the other religions combined. Read your history. It was one of the most preditory religions of all time. It by far surpassed the islamics and all of their competition by far.
*


Perhaps you need to give us a history lesson. But I forgot, you won't talk to me because I ask you to provide proof of your ridiculous allegations. Which you never seem to be able to do.

popcorn.gif popcorn.gif popcorn.gif
Tuatara
QUOTE (Nomad @ Jan 28 2006, 09:22 PM)
Then prove it. If you can................................
popcorn.gif  popcorn.gif  popcorn.gif
*

Crusades...7 of them
Witch hunts
Inquisitions
Jesuit missions : convert or die
so many many more


Remember God is the best recruitment for war.
John L
QUOTE (Tuatara @ Jan 28 2006, 04:03 PM)
Why are members here against freedom of speech. Are they afraid of what Tariq Ramadan might say. It seems they would rather let their fears overtake their ability to listen.
*


First, we are at war with militant Islam. Obviously this person has chosen to side with militant Islam. Is this the type of person you would welcome into the country and allow him to subvert his students? Are you that willing to give up the fight so easily? And are you stating that we do not have the ''right" to decide who can and cannot enter this country?

QUOTE
I'm willing to bet more people on this planet have died in the name of Christianity than of Islam. And when Bush uses the word "crusade" and drops bombs in Iraq that's a lot more killed than every suicide bomber ever amassed.


A lot of people have done things in the name of a lot of other things. Christianity preaches love of thy neighbor, and peace and good will. It is the principle tenent of Christianity. If some person perverts this message, it is not the fault of Christianity, but that person. Would you not agree to this reasoning?

QUOTE
Atheism is not a religion. Do you feel these people do not have rights?


NO need to go over this again. It has already been shown, prior to your return, that Atheism is indeed officially a religion in the US, as the courts have already ruled it as such. If you chose to object, then so a search and you can locate the thread it is on.

QUOTE
Crusades...7 of them
Witch hunts
Inquisitions
Jesuit missions : convert or die
so many many more


Let us take them one by one.

First, the Crusades. The reason for the crusades was both economic and political. Islam refused to allow christians to journey to the Holy Land in order to worship in the Land of Jesus. Pilgrams were even tortured and killed. Also, this area was a principle trade route of goods coming from the east. The spice trade was enormous, and it was in danger of being cut off entirely. The up front "sexy" reason was the reintroduction of Christianity, but the former two were the REAL reasons.

Second, Witch hunts. This was more pagan than Christian. And it was due to ignorance and irrational fear. Christianity was simply the upper layer, that some gave it in order to give it legitimacy.

Third, Inquisitions. Granted, this was sanctioned by the Church in Rome, and was indeed infamour. But I must state that it was the principle of power of one person over another, that led to this deplorable action. If you must blame any ore organization, blame the Church of Rome, not Christianity. Again, Christianity preaches love, peace, and understanding. Obviously you have never read any of the four Gospels, or you would not use this argument.

Fourth,Jesuit Missions: convert Or Die. I find this to be a bit interesting. I must assume that you are saying that Jesuits were the barbarians of the Catholic Orders, right? Granted the zeal of some members may have been above the norm, but I would like for you to show me where the Jesuits had a policy of converting heathens to Christ, or they were to be killed. Please look this up and show us all where we are wrong.

Fifth, So Many, Many more. How can one argue this one? Are you adding this to prove a point, or provide a tease? Or perhaps make your list appear more extensive?


QUOTE
Remember God is the best recruitment for war.


Let us look at this rather childish statement a bit closer. YOu are stating that it is Christianity, or G-d, that is the dastardly recruitment means of going to war, right? As I have shown with the Crusades, the actual reasons for them were political AND economic in nature. Wars are waged as a result of the same thing. they are political in nature because two or more sides have trouble getting along, or one side covets another side's resources. And they are economic because one side seeks to gain an economic advantage over another by acquiring resourses without just conpensation.

If G-d is used as a recruitment means, it is not the fault of religion that it is used and abused in this, but that of those conducting the abuse. This is basically the same thing as blaming firearms for the death of citizens, when it is really the result of certain individuals, who are doing the actual killing, and using firearms as thier means of accomplishing the deeds. You are simply looking at the process and blaming the means, and not the perpetrator.

Turtara, I suspect that you are a very young person, or someone who's thinking process is held back by an overabundance of emotionalism, rather than reason. I suppose this is why you are one of the new "up front" lefties on this forum now.

If you are going to be able to debate here with any degree of accuracy AND impact, you are going to have to learn to use reason and logic with your skills, rather than "Feelings". And further, your secular humanist debates are illogical at best. You are either in rebellion with Christ, or you were never introduced to him because your parents made a wonderful example of what NOT to do when raising children. I can't figure out which, and really don't care. The result is basically the same.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (Tuatara @ Jan 28 2006, 09:20 PM)
Atheism is not a religion. Do you feel these people do not have rights?
*

If I had my way, NO. Atheists spend a heck of lot more time trying to prove God doesn't exist than I do defending my faith or spreading the Gospel (gotta admit, you guys are focused)
Question: since you think God doesn't exist, then why are you so concerned with removing God references from anything in the public square? Why does thatstuff bother you if He doesn't exist? Doesn't removing God violate my rights (using YOUR argument here)?
If you actually think having a nativity scene on public land or saying a prayer in school or at a school football game, or saying "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance is "forcing God upon you" then you have some serious issues. Maybe you should move to a country like, say, Iran, that forces its people to obey Islam or die.
GreyMan
No matter what cause or justification people use to go to war - war has been wrought in the Name of God and Jesus more often than anything else. Islam is a close second - very close. Does God preach peace and goodwill towards Man? Not really - God the biblical God was a vengefull fellow willing to curse and kill just about anyone who disagreed with him. Jesus - on the other hand - Sure thing - his gospels are amazing works and they have messages relevant to believers and non-believers alike. There is something in his words for all people - no matter what your religious views.

The real problem lies with man. It is man alone who uses these very words as a sword against his fellow humans and this is the problem - with all religions. Simply put man cannot be trusted with any level of civility when there are competing religious views. The cursades were no less brutal and deadly to hundreds of thousands of Muslims and chritains than what we are doing now in the name of security in Iraq. Our very society is based on Judeo Christian values - and it is those very values that some in the islamic world try to justify terror against us. it is part of the fundemental misunderstanding that we perpetuate with governments like we have ruling this very moment.

Instead of trying to further promote understanding within the islamic communities in the world - we are alienating them into radically charged govenments. Ask yourself one big question? Are their any high level Muslims in the Bush government right now?

Any? High level.

No.

And whether you like it or not - religion is still the basic foundation for the war we are now seeing unfold before us. And under George Bush - we now have more radically elected governments in the Islamic world than before and you can lay part of the blame for this on the Bush administration and their policies as dictated by our so called security. In otherwords - we have begun creating a world that is potentially much more dangerous by our own actions and whether you like it or not - shuting out the voices that are critical of us does not stop the rest of the world from hearing what they have to say.

They are seeing us as cowards and hypocrites. And that is a real shame.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 29 2006, 12:49 PM)
Are their any high level Muslims in the Bush government right now?

Any? High level.

No.


*


Who was the one with Clinton/Carter/Bush 41/Reagan/Nixon etc?
John L
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 12:43 PM)
If I had my way, NO.  Atheists spend a heck of lot more time trying to prove God doesn't exist than I do defending my faith or spreading the Gospel  (gotta admit, you guys are focused)
Question:  since you think God doesn't exist, then why are you so concerned with removing God references from anything in the public square?  Why does thatstuff bother you if He doesn't exist?  Doesn't removing God violate my rights (using YOUR argument here)?
If you actually think having a nativity scene on public land or saying a prayer in school or at a school football game, or saying "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance is "forcing God upon you" then you have some serious issues.  Maybe you should move to a country like, say, Iran, that forces its people to obey Islam or die.
*


One word to describe the entire bunch SG: Insecurity.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (John L @ Jan 29 2006, 01:23 PM)
One word to describe the entire bunch SG: Insecurity.
*


Absolutely, John, but they now have a security blanket called the ACLU.
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 10:56 AM)
Who was the one with Clinton/Carter/Bush 41/Reagan/Nixon etc?
*


My point exactly. It's about time we start looking into this as their population steadily grows in this country.
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 11:35 AM)
Absolutely, John, but they now have a security blanket called the ACLU.
*


And as a gay man - so do you Skiguy.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 29 2006, 01:48 PM)
And as a gay man - so do you Skiguy.
*


Well gays do have the ACLU, but as far as myself, I'm trying to turn away from that and follow God, Grey. I struggle with it and the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and don't agree with anything about it. Nor do I agree with the ACLU supporting it and promoting it as well as many other Godless/anti American things (they are against the child porn act, they subvert school rules by representing a student who complains about things like dress codes, and support NAMBLA to name some examples)
SoloNav
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 01:43 PM)
Well gays do have the ACLU, but as far as myself, I'm trying to turn away from that and follow God, Grey.  I struggle with it and the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and don't agree with anything about it.  Nor do I agree with the ACLU supporting it and promoting it as well as many other Godless/anti American things (they are against the child porn act, they subvert school rules by representing a student who complains about things like dress codes,  and support NAMBLA to name some examples)
*

Put on the Armor of Righteousness and wield the Sword of God, Ski, when dealing with those that would disparage your Christian ethics. My hat is off to you, as well as my supreme admiration. smile.gif Go get 'um!
SkiGuy
QUOTE (SoloNav @ Jan 29 2006, 04:55 PM)
Put on the Armor of Righteousness and wield the Sword of God, Ski, when dealing with those that would disparage your  Christian ethics.  My hat is off to you, as well as my supreme admiration. smile.gif  Go get 'um!
*


Wish I could do that ALL the time!
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 03:08 PM)
Wish I could do that ALL the time!
*


Ski - I could care less whether your gay, whether you are a jew, a muslim, or a practicing wiccan or are a misguided Texan therapist like Solo - your faith is not in question. But imagine for a second if your faith was suddenly being controlled by the government and you were no longer permited to pray and worship as you please?

That is what the ACLU is designed to do - to protect your freedoms no matter how ignorant some those in here tell you so often and with such hatred. I guess I am still in awe of just how many people in here are so incapable of even trying to search for the truth that they are blind to the things that are happening right before their very eyes - and how quick they are to listen to those they place their blind faith in.

Use your own mind to find what it is that matters to you as far as truth is concerned. Don't let me or Solo or John or anyone tell you how to think. You mind and your faith are all you need. See if you'll hear the GOP or others in the Bearpit tell you this any clearer.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 29 2006, 05:29 PM)
But imagine for a second if your faith was suddenly being controlled by the government and you were no longer permited to pray and worship as you please?
*


Wow, Grey. All you have to do is replace the word "government" with "ACLU" and your statement becomes true.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 29 2006, 01:46 PM)
My point exactly. It's about time we start looking into this as their population steadily grows in this country.
*

No.. Your point was why does THIS administration not have Muslims in high places. In other words you were complaining and whining, like the typical Democrat, about Bush.
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 01:43 PM)
(they are against the child porn act, they subvert school rules by representing a student who complains about things like dress codes,  and support NAMBLA to name some examples)
*

And the US supreme court agrees with them on these issues.

Here is the ACLU's statemnt of purpose for their stands on religious Liberty:
QUOTE
Religious Liberty:
The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that religious liberty is protected by keeping the government out of religion. Learn more about the ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans.


Check out this link where the ACLU held up a second graders right to sing "Awesome God" at a school talent show:

ACLU of New Jersey Joins Lawsuit Supporting Second-Grader's Right to Sing "Awesome God" at Talent Show

And try this one:

ACLU Of New Jersey Successfully Defends Right of Religious Expression by Jurors

And:

ACLU Urges North Carolina Courts to Allow Use of Multiple Religious Texts for Swearing Oaths

And:
Fredericksburg City Council Agrees to ACLU Request, Adopts Non-Sectarian Prayer Policy

this is a small taste of what the ACLU is doing for religion. Don't be fooled by people pretending to actually claim to support religous liberties when in fact they only want to protect thier own verions of a religion practiced by themselves, shutting out everyone else in the process.

Use your mind Ski!
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 03:43 PM)
Wow, Grey.  All you have to do is replace the word "government" with "ACLU" and your statement becomes true.
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You know Ski - forget everything I've said. Your mind is as closed as everyone else on your side of the isle. I wish you luck in your transformation from actively gay man to former gay man who found religion and can swear off gay sexual tendencies and still feel good about yourself. Seriously.

Best of luck to you.
SkiGuy
Here's there mission statement statement direct from aclu.org
QUOTE
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.


Were's STRICT in the Constitution, where's "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" in their mission statement.

OPEN your mind, Grey
GreyMan
QUOTE (SkiGuy @ Jan 29 2006, 03:57 PM)
Here's there mission statement statement direct from aclu.org
Were's STRICT in the Constitution, where's "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" in their mission statement.
OPEN your mind, Grey
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My mind is open Ski. It always has been. I don't look to churches, or governments or what ever for answers to all of my problems.

As for the ACLU and their view on religious liberty - it deals with the concept of, well - religious liberty - duh!
So try this again:
QUOTE
ACLU's Mission Statement for the free exercise of -  Religious Liberty:
The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that religious liberty is protected by keeping the government out of religion. Learn more about the ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty and take action to protect the rights guaranteed to all Americans.


We're done here.
SkiGuy
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 29 2006, 05:59 PM)
We're done here.
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Agreed
Tuatara
QUOTE (John L @ Jan 29 2006, 10:32 AM)
First, we are at war with militant Islam.  
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No you are not. Show me where tha administration has used those words.
QUOTE
Obviously this person has chosen to side with militant Islam.

The old "you're either with us or against us" mentality. Can any of you think for yourselves? Show me where I have side with Islam militants?
QUOTE
Is this the type of person you would welcome into the country and allow him to subvert his students?

Why not welcome him into the country? Many people in the US agree with what he has to say. Does he promote terrorism against the US? I have seen no evidence of this. As for the links pertaining to the first article most are expired or in French. How do you get an English quote from a french site?
QUOTE
Are you that willing to give up the fight so easily?

What fight are you talking about?
QUOTE
And are you stating that we do not have the ''right" to decide who can and cannot enter this country?
Do you speak for all Americans? If nobody wanted him in, he wouldn't have been invited there. There would be no protests to the refusal of his arrival. Nice twist but your feedoms are slowly deteriorating. I wonder what other country was doing this, say back in 1933.
QUOTE
A lot of people have done things in the name of a lot of other things. Christianity preaches love of thy neighbor, and peace and good will. It is the principle tenent of Christianity.

Islam does this too.
QUOTE
If some person perverts this message, it is not the fault of Christianity, but that person. Would you not agree to this reasoning?

Wouldn't you say the same for Islam? As for some perverting the message. I would say the majority of Christians do. Look here on these boards, all the hate messages spilled out by so-called Christians. They may claim they are but their words of hatred speak for themselves.
QUOTE
NO need to go over this again. It has already been shown, prior to your return, that Atheism is indeed officially a religion in the US, as the courts have already ruled it as such. If you chose to object, then so a search and you can locate the thread it is on.

I most certainly will. If what you say is true then these people have no idea what the word religion means.
Tuatara
QUOTE
First, the Crusades. The reason for the crusades was both economic and political. Islam refused to allow christians to journey to the Holy Land in order to worship in the Land of Jesus.

That reasons sounds religious and political to me.
QUOTE
Pilgrams were even tortured and killed. Also, this area was a principle trade route of goods coming from the east. The spice trade was enormous, and it was in danger of being cut off entirely. The up front "sexy" reason was the reintroduction of Christianity, but the former two were the REAL reasons.

"sexy"? you've got to be joking. Every war out there is because of ecomomic and political reasons. With the crusades the religious factor is prominent. Are you suggesting that conflicts by Islamist terrorists are religious only and void of political and economic reasons?
QUOTE
Second, Witch hunts. This was more pagan than Christian.

Where are you getting your information from?? It was not at all pagan and completely christian. Pagans were sometimes persecuted as "witches" and hung or burned.
QUOTE
And it was due to ignorance and irrational fear

Exactly, and I'm still seeing a lot of that today.
QUOTE
Christianity was simply the upper layer, that some gave it in order to give it legitimacy.

wrong
QUOTE
Fourth,Jesuit Missions: convert Or Die. I find this to be a bit interesting. I must assume that you are saying that Jesuits were the barbarians of the Catholic Orders, right? Granted the zeal of some members may have been above the norm, but I would like for you to show me where the Jesuits had a policy of converting heathens to Christ, or they were to be killed. Please look this up and show us all where we are wrong.

There you go
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/mission.html
http://mystery.sdsu.edu/freedom/teachers/missionindians.htm
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411200
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/canada.html
http://www.bergonia.org/Christianity.htm
QUOTE
Fifth, So Many, Many more. How can one argue this one? Are you adding this to prove a point, or provide a tease? Or perhaps make your list appear more extensive?

Read here. I didn't know that I was supposed to list them all to prove a point.'
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
Tuatara
QUOTE
Let us look at this rather childish statement a bit closer. YOu are stating that it is Christianity, or G-d, that is the dastardly recruitment means of going to war, right?
No, I am stating that God is the best recruitment for war. I didn't mention Christianity. Look how many times people use the terms "God is on our side" and we are fighting in the name of _____ (insert generic holy name here). Look at all the political and religious leaders who use the term god to recruit citizens into war. Osama, Bush, Hitler, Churchill, Napoleon ... Do I need to list them all? Now tell me how this is childish.
QUOTE
As I have shown with the Crusades, the actual reasons for them were political AND economic in nature.

And I refuted this.
QUOTE
Wars are waged as a result of the same thing. they are political in nature because two or more sides have trouble getting along, or one side covets another side's resources.

This is oversimplifying it way too much.
There are litterally thousands of reasons. We are looking at ways of recruitment here.
God and Nationalism are the 2 best tools.
QUOTE
And they are economic because one side seeks to gain an economic advantage over another by acquiring resourses without just conpensation.

Like I said before, economics plays a major role in all wars.
QUOTE
If G-d is used as a recruitment means, it is not the fault of religion that it is used and abused in this, but that of those conducting the abuse.

Your half right. The fault also lies in those who practice and follow these said abuses.
QUOTE
This is basically the same thing as blaming firearms for the death of citizens, when it is really the result of certain individuals, who are doing the actual killing, and using firearms as thier means of accomplishing the deeds. You are simply looking at the process and blaming the means, and not the perpetrator.

I blame individuals who caused those deaths. The blame of the fire-arm is that it makes it more accessible to kill more in a shorter amount of time and it makes it easier to kill.
John L
Tell you what T, until you are able to get your posts straight, I am not going to bother with you. First, you post a lengthy rebuttal, then you post another one, that contriducts the first one. YOu seriously need to put your head on straight.

Until then, have a good one. Jeeze, you are amazing with your giant reasoning skills. blink.gif
Tuatara
QUOTE
Turtara, I suspect that you are a very young person

Is this a roundabout way to insult my maturity level?
QUOTE
or someone who's thinking process is held back by an overabundance of emotionalism, rather than reason

Where have I showed emotion on this topic? My reasoning has just been fine.
QUOTE
I suppose this is why you are one of the new "up front" lefties on this forum now.

I've been here since May. I didn't post for awhile because I was tired of ad-hominens, personal attacks and trolling by certain members, for some reason, have not been banned.
QUOTE
If you are going to be able to debate here with any degree of accuracy AND impact, you are going to have to learn to use reason and logic with your skills

I do. Reread through all my posts and see the percentage of my claims and charges that get rebuked. Hardly any.
QUOTE
rather than "Feelings".

Nice try. Just like Ustrader, when you loose the argument you introduce new angles and charges that have nothing to do with the content of argument. (ie. giving definitions of words)
QUOTE
And further, your secular humanist debates are illogical at best.

How so?
QUOTE
You are either in rebellion with Christ, or you were never introduced to him because your parents made a wonderful example of what NOT to do when raising children

I see. So parents who do not introduce their children to christ to not set good examples? Does this go for Hindu parents, Jewish parents, Islamic, Bhuddist, Animist and every other non-christian religion and non-religious parents? Tell me again about how christianity preaches love, peace, and understanding.
QUOTE
I can't figure out which, and really don't care. The result is basically the same.

Spreading that Christian love around. Ned Flanders would be proud.
Tuatara
QUOTE (John L @ Jan 29 2006, 06:17 PM)
Tell you what T, until you are able to get your posts straight, I am not going to bother with you.  First, you post a lengthy rebuttal, then you post another one, that contriducts the first one.  YOu seriously need to put your head on straight.

Until then, have a good one.  Jeeze, you are amazing with your giant reasoning skills.  blink.gif
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Translation: You have nothing
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