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GreyMan
Can you imagine - if Hillary Clinton used the power of the government to do what Bush is now doing with wiretaps? Can you imagine the howls and cries for her head if she did the very thing that Bush is doing right now?

I think the hypocracy would be so deep that you'd think you were at the republican convention after beer and nachos night!

Anyway - Here is a little piece by Molly Ivins, a fellow Teaxas and one of Bush's best friends in the media!

Enjoy!

QUOTE
What if Hillary did this?

AUSTIN, Texas (Creators Syndicate) -- We live in interesting times, we do, we do. We can read in our daily newspapers that our government is about to launch a three-day propaganda blitz to convince us all that its secret program to spy on us is something we really want and need. "A campaign of high-profile national security events," reports The New York Times, follows "Karl Rove's blistering speech to national Republicans" about what a swell political issue this is for their party.

The question for journalists is how to report this. President Bush says it's a great idea and he's proud of the secret spy program? Attorney General Gonzales explains breaking the law is no problem? Dick Cheney says accept spying, or Osama bin Laden will get you?

Or might we actually have gotten far enough to point out that the series of high-profile security events is in fact part of a propaganda campaign by our own government? Should we report it as though it were in fact a campaign tactic, a straight political ploy: The Republicans say spying is good for you, but the Democrats say it is not -- equal time to both sides?

Perhaps we have some obligation to try to sift through what it means that our government is spying on us in violation of the law and the Constitution.

Then there's the problem of reporting within the context of this administration's other propaganda efforts. "We do not torture," and, "We are not running a gulag of secret detention centers," are two of the more recent examples, superceding the golden oldies -- like the smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud.

Furthermore, the Rove offensive is not to admit that we are indeed running a gulag of secret detention camps, but to attack those who point it out and put them under investigation for revealing government secrets and helping the enemy. Even without the intimidation, how do you report something claimed by George W. Bush as though you hadn't recently heard him say he would support John McCain's amendment barring torture -- and then turn around and claim that he has the right to violate that law?

I genuinely appreciate the response by real conservatives on this issue -- the libertarians, the true heirs of Barry Goldwater, the all-government-is-bad grumps. It's called principle. But I am confounded by the authoritarian streak in the Republican Party backing Bush on this. To me it seems so simple: Would you think this was a good idea if Hillary Clinton were president? Would you be defending the clear and unnecessary violation of the law? Do you have complete confidence that she would never misuse this "inherent power" for any partisan reason?

The warrantless wiretaps reportedly covered thousands of calls, and the information obtained was widely circulated among federal agencies. I know one guy who is now on the federal no-fly list. His sin? Co-authoring an unflattering book about Karl Rove. What a menace to national security he is.

One of the odder features of our time is that much of our political debate is cast in "moral" terms, with such helpful authorities as Pat Robertson holding forth on whom we should assassinate next. A more useful contribution from this direction comes from Jimmy Carter in his new book, "Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis."

I am a great admirer of Carter's and glad to hear his soft Southern Christian voice once more. But it occurs to me that in his quiet way, many of his arguments are as pragmatic as they are moral.

As one with considerable faith in the common sense of Americans , it occurs to me we may yet rescue ourselves from this bootless skunk match over morality by using plain sense, instead. Many of Carter's points center on the fact that our war on terrorism is not working. Iraq is not working (hard to even count the ways). Major terrorist attacks themselves more than tripled from 2003, to 655 attacks in 2004. Our support in the Middle East sinks lower and lower. The region is not becoming more democratic.

What would happen if we had not a political, but a pragmatic debate about all of this: We have made a horrible mess of this entire war on terrorism, now how do we fix it? What do we do? I realize it's a bit simplistic of me after all this time, but I really think one of the best things we could do for ourselves is deal honestly with the facts. Because we have made a mess of this does not mean we are a pitiful, helpless giant -- the United States still has more sheer military power than anyone else on earth. But using it is not necessarily the best way to get the results we want.

Because we are stuck with this administration for another three years, I think it important to begin to get past the defensiveness and drawing attention away and blame games that big messes provoke. And part of that calls on American journalism to get over reporting the Bush administration as though it were a credible source. We need to face facts.
GreyMan
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 30 2006, 02:11 PM)
Can you imagine - if Hillary Clinton used the power of the government to do what Bush is now doing with wiretaps? Can you imagine the howls and cries for her head if she did the very thing that Bush is doing right now?

I think the hypocracy would be so deep that you'd think you were at the republican convention after beer and nachos night!

Anyway - Here is a little piece by Molly Ivins, a fellow Teaxas and one of Bush's best friends in the media!

Enjoy!
*



The silence is deafening - as is the hypocracy of the right wing. You guys on the right are too predictable.
Vagrant
The simple fact is that every President since Carter has done this or something similar and yet there was no outrage. Why now?

'What if Hillary did this?'

'What if Bush did it?'
Stealth
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Jan 30 2006, 01:11 PM)
Can you imagine - if Hillary Clinton used the power of the government to do what Bush is now doing with wiretaps? Can you imagine the howls and cries for her head if she did the very thing that Bush is doing right now?

I think the hypocracy would be so deep that you'd think you were at the republican convention after beer and nachos night!

Anyway - Here is a little piece by Molly Ivins, a fellow Teaxas and one of Bush's best friends in the media!

Enjoy!
*


Molly Ivins a friend of Prez. Bush? You are as demented as your avatars appear. What if Hillary? Is at best a canard from mind of just another Bush hater, another round of emotional B.S.

Personally, I think, it would be one less thing to be concerned about if the Democrats could be counted on to do what needs to be done. As it is, all they can really be counted on is getting in the way, while lending encouragement to the enemy. If Hillary had the Balls I would say great, at best she would probably be conflicted where decisive need only reside. wink.gif
Boon Mee
My Kinda Gal! laugh.gif

SoloNav
QUOTE (Boon Mee @ Feb 1 2006, 03:10 PM)
My Kinda Gal! laugh.gif

OMG!!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

What a good caricature!
SoloNav
Never mind. I just wanted one picture and the whole crop came up.
GreyMan
QUOTE (Boon Mee @ Feb 1 2006, 03:10 PM)
My Kinda Gal! laugh.gif


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She must have seen what Boon Mee really looks like - that would scare the bejeezus out anyone!
GreyMan
QUOTE (Stealth @ Feb 1 2006, 02:22 PM)
Molly Ivins a friend of Prez. Bush? You are as demented as your avatars appear. What if Hillary? Is at best a canard from mind of just another Bush hater, another round of emotional B.S.

Personally, I think, it would be one less thing to be concerned about if the Democrats could be counted on to do what needs to be done. As it is, all they can really be counted on is getting in the way, while lending encouragement to the enemy. If Hillary had the Balls I would say great, at best she would probably be conflicted where decisive need only reside. wink.gif
*



Stealth - I was being, now this is a big word so get out your dictionary - "sarcastic" when refering to the wonderful bond of friendship between Bush and Ivins.

And obviously we have seen in the thousands of US deaths what the results of a so called "decisive" president has wrought.

Personally I prefer my presidents to be a little more thoughtfull and intelligent but still be capable of taking strong action when it's actually called for. And just to get the record straight - there is only one candidate who I like right now for 2008 - and he's a republican and lives in Arizona. I could never vote for Hillary - shes better as a senator and would make a terrible president I think.
Stealth
QUOTE (GreyMan @ Feb 1 2006, 04:52 PM)
Stealth - I was being, now this is a big word so get out your dictionary  - "sarcastic" when refering to the wonderful bond of friendship between Bush and Ivins.

.... And just to get the record straight - there is only one candidate who I like right now for 2008 - and he's a republican and lives in Arizona. I could never vote for Hillary - shes better as a senator and would make a terrible president I think.
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Sarcasm, yeah I know what that is. I just did not see it. Tell me, how do we know when you are being sarcastic? You have to admit the difference between your normal and sarcastic self is subtle. I mean, are you being sarcastic when you say you won't vote for Hillary, would you really vote for John M? ohmy.gif
GreyMan
QUOTE (Stealth @ Feb 2 2006, 09:30 AM)
Sarcasm, yeah I know what that is. I just did not see it. Tell me, how do we know when you are being sarcastic? You have to admit the difference between your normal and sarcastic self is subtle.  I mean, are you being sarcastic when you say you won't vote for Hillary, would you really vote for John M?  ohmy.gif
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Sarcasm should be subtle - otherwise it's pointless.

And yes, I'm serious - I would vote for John McCain in a second. We were on the same ship, USS Forrestal CV-59 - though at different times, while in the Navy. He was there during the tragic Forrestal Fire that killed almost 190 sailors and was nearly killed himself as his F4 was being engulfed in flames from missiles firing all over the flight deck - I was there 10 years later working in Flight Ops.

Actually - I would volunteer for his campaign. And that is not being sarcastic.
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