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John L
IT looks as though my forecast is indeed coming true. China is in for a very rough ride in the future, possible even sooner than I had expected. Now, if you look at this article from Stratfor, you will think that growth is good for the PRC. But this is not so. China is trying desperately to slow things down, because an overheated economy AND the huge number of bad loans will combine to create a Huge Mess. And it is happening faster than anticipated. You will have to read the article and have a fairly good economic foundation to understand this, but it is logical and bodes ill for the PRC.

I used to think that China could hold things off until the Olympiad in 2008, but I now have serious doubts. I suspect that this crash will be worse than that of Japan. And Japan has Still not come out of it's deflationary malaise even now. For those, who are heavily invested in China, you may wish to invest elsewhere.

This article by Stratfor is not linkable.

QUOTE
Geopolitical Diary: China's Economy, Out of Control
June 15, 2006 02 09 GMT

China announced Wednesday that industrial production increased in May more rapidly than at any time in the past two years. Output rose 17.9 percent compared to May 2005. The numbers exceeded expectations. Exports in May rose by 25.1 percent while domestic retail sales grew by 14.2 percent. In other words, the Chinese government's campaign to slow China's overheating economy is not working. On the contrary, the economy is accelerating.Read the other article below to understand this statement.

That is why the People's Bank of China (PBC), China's central bank, issued a statement Wednesday saying that banks should be concerned about the potential risks associated with the rapid increase in lending, following a meeting between PBC officials and representatives of China's banks. China's M2 -- the broad measure of China's money supply -- grew at 19.1 percent year-on-year, outstripping government targets. More important is the fact that Chinese banks, which are provided annual targets for the amount they should make in loans, have already loaned over two-thirds of that amount -- with more than half a year to go -- and it appears that the rate of lending is accelerating.

Put very simply, the Chinese economy is out of control. One would think that the faster the growth, the better the economy; but at a certain point -- and in this case -- that is not so, which is why the PBC is trying to get control of the situation. The problem is the massive overhang of debt, and in particular, troubled loans. Looked at from the standpoint of Chinese corporations, servicing this debt is a tremendous burden. Looked at from the standpoint of Chinese banks, the loans threaten the banks' viability if they become nonperforming.

The solution of Chinese companies is to sell more products to generate cash to pay off the loans. It is difficult to sell into the Chinese economy because of high savings rates, driven by government policies and economic insecurity. The Chinese government needs a high savings rate to help stabilize the banks; dramatically increasing domestic consumption would undermine the savings rate, threatening the banking system just as surely as defaulting loans would. The solution for these companies, therefore, is to increase exports. In a world already saturated with Chinese exports, the only way to increase cash flow is to cut already low prices. That increases cash flow but does nothing for profitability. In other words, companies already saddled by debt burdens cut into (or below) profit margins to service the debt.

The banks, meantime, do not want to write off nonperforming loans. The trick is to keep them performing -- at least to some extent -- since the definition of a "troubled" loan is both more elastic and less devastating to a bank's balance sheet. To do this, the banks arrange to lend more money to troubled enterprises. This allows some repayment of old debts, but simply puts off the day of reckoning on all sides (and increases the magnitude of reckoning when it arrives). Thus, bank lending accelerates at a breakneck pace -- not going into market-driven opportunities, but maintaining essentially failed enterprises for a while longer. Production surges at lower prices and the entire process moves faster and faster.

The problem is that any slowdown in economic growth decreases cash flow from imports, cuts into debt payments, and increases nonperforming loans until the entire edifice starts to collapse on itself. This is what happened to Japan in slow motion in the 1990s, and to Southeast Asia with dizzying speed in 1997.

The Chinese government knows it needs to slow down growth to avoid hitting a brick wall. It also knows that slowing down the economy can threaten the entire banking system. It is therefore engaged in setting restrained economic targets and expansionary economic policies simultaneously. It is caught between a rock and a hard place. At a certain point, Chinese companies will no longer be able to grow their exports rapidly. In the case of China, it is the speed bump that is the brick wall. Slowing down is dangerous and speeding up disastrous.

At this moment, therefore, the Chinese economy, incredibly, is speeding up. Virtually every economic indicator we see -- with allowances given for uncertainties in Chinese statistical methodology, to put it politely -- is surging out of control. It has been clear to the Chinese government for a while that this is coming, and it is now clear to the Western media that China is in trouble. Business Week, which has normally written breathlessly enthusiastic articles on the Chinese miracle, ran one this week entitled "China: Big Economy, Bigger Peril?"

Indeed.


Here is the second, earlier part, that will help you understand the former article.

QUOTE
China: Banking on Shifting Growth to the Interior
April 27, 2006 17 15 GMT


Summary

China's central bank announced April 27 that it is raising interest rates and requested that banks reduce the amount of credit they are extending. The bank's moves reflect China's attempts to slow its breakneck, and increasingly unhealthy, growth in its coastal regions while shifting investment to the interior.

Analysis

China's central bank announced April 27 an increase in its benchmark interest rate from 5.58 percent to 5.85 percent, effective April 28. It is the first increase since October 2004. The central bank also requested that the China's many banks voluntarily restrict lending in order help slow down economic growth.

In a free market system (that is working well) higher rates lead to a more realistic and rational allocation of capital. Thus, a hike in interest rates in the United States makes some borderline investments no longer attractive. China's system, however, does not work that way.

In China money is not considered a limited resource. The combination of the yuan peg and subsidized loans allow firms to expand broadly without regard for profitability. The residential construction sector is perhaps the best example. Between building for the 2008 Olympics and the sheer challenge of sheltering 1.2 billion people, China's need for housing is astronomical, and as expected, some one-sixth of all loans granted go to efforts to build more housing. But the structures being built are not structures Chinese citizens need. As such, China has a housing shortage, but 700,000 empty apartments.

Similar trends exist across all sectors, with investment flowing into either high- or low-end products for which there is little demand. That sustained surge in mindless growth has made China one of the largest consumers of a host of raw materials in the world, but has earned it just under 5 percent of global gross domestic product (GDP). China's numbers do indicate growth, but to see it as healthy growth one must have a very skewed perspective.





China's problem is that slowing this growth is not easily done. In addition to the ossified political links between state-owned firms and state-owned banks and local governing officials (all of whom have vested personal interests in keeping the cheap money flowing) -- which make political moves on the issue cumbersome -- as lousy as these firms are, they do employ people. The last thing the government wants to do is put 100 million or so people out of work in a country with as powerful regional crosscurrents as China has (but more on that later). Thus, the central bank paired its hike to financing costs with a request that China's banks ease off a bit -- the unspoken goal being that if banks tighten up credit, then perhaps all those inefficient firms will begin treating money like a resource worthy of conserving.

But there is more to the Chinese appeal than the headlines reveal. China wants growth and wants it desperately. One of the many lessons China has learned by coming late to the game of Asian development is that one's economy can be stable only if it has domestic demand. Economies based on exports alone (as China's currently is) will fall, and fall badly. Raising interest rates specifically dampens the sort of domestic consumer demand China so desperately wants and needs. This step was taken only because China faces an even larger problem.

China wants growth, but it wants more of that growth in specific places. China's rulers have always struggled to keep the outward-oriented coastal regions in sync with the more insular interior. Whenever one of the two regions becomes too disparate relative to the other, China suffers a catastrophe that re-establishes the balance.

In the late 19th century, China's coastal regions in effect declared economic independence from the interior, throwing their fates in with foreign powers, giving rise to Western spheres of influence on the coast. When Mao's revolution began, he had to go to the interior to gather forces. And in order to re-establish China's internal balance, he had to wreck the coastal economies in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.

That balance is again out of whack, but this time around, the Chinese government would prefer to raise the wealth of the interior instead of decimating the coast. It is not so much about dampening growth, as redirecting it. And therein lies the subtext of the central bank's request to curb lending. The government does not want breakneck growth on the coast. The coast has had its turn, and a glance at fixed investment rates and residential disparities indicates how unstable China is: Beijing wants growth in the interior in order to prevent any Long Marches leading to the Politburo.

Earlier this year, the government formally adopted a new five-year plan that can be summed up as "send your money west." At the time, we noted that we did not expect many businessmen, particularly the state-owned enterprise sort, to heed the call. In fact, we expected those businessmen to turn to more exotic sources of funding. The more reputable turned to overseas banks, the less reputable to loan sharks. We also noted that the central government would begin making ever more direct appeals, eventually turning into threats -- and ultimately punishments -- should the business community not follow the central diktat. The central bank has now raised financing costs and called on the banks to slow the flow of loans. Next come the threats.
Nomad
Great info John. Unfortunatly this means little to the economically ignorant on this board. What I find ironic here is the the Chinese master plan was to outgrow the west as a means of gaining a major foothold in global influence. Now it appears that gun never left the holster when it was fired. There are BIG problems with this scenario. China is a totalitarian state. If the economy collapses they will have a HUGH amount of social unrest. In that situation they have only 2 options. The wholesale slaughter of the malcontents, OR ramping up the demogogory and nationalism by blameing others for their own problems. The latter can only result in extremely nasty military confrontations. The ruling elite will act like a cornered beast at some point. And just how they might react should brown some shorts.

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John L
Here is a follow-up.

QUOTE
Global Market Brief: Beijing's New Effort to Limit Loans
June 15, 2006 21 03 GMT


China has come under increasing pressure to address looming bank crisis. To address the situation, it has considered numerous options to curb lending, many of which have unwanted side effects -- or simply do not work.

The People's Bank of China (PBC) announced June 13 it is offering "special bills" to Chinese banks. Offering, however, is not the right word. It is forcing banks to buy these bills -- at paltry returns -- to reduce the amount of cash the banks have in hand, thereby limiting the number of loans Chinese banks can make.

China's trade surplus brings in foreign cash, which the PBC buys with freshly printed yuan, thus increasing the liquidity in the system. This excess liquidity has enabled loose lending practices. Thus, China's banks are flush with cash -- and contributing to investment and real estate bubbles. Furthermore, banks have funded unsound projects under dubious lending practices, untempered by a healthy understanding of risk. These banks have been bailed out so often that risk assessment is meaningless to them. The consequent loans to unreliable investors and businesses promise to plague China with more nonperforming loans (NPLs) in the very near future.

Cooling off its economy is necessary for China's survival. When real estate and investment bubbles burst and investors lose confidence in China, there will be a drop in new investment. And without a steady pace of investment, China will face an unemployment crisis, which will translate into a political crisis.

All of the policy prescriptions for cooling down the economy, however, come at a price. One option is to let the yuan float, which would invariably lead to its appreciation. This is something the United States has pestered China to do for quite some time now. A revaluation of the yuan would slow the influx of Chinese goods into foreign markets as their prices rise. It would also hurt Chinese agriculture as foreign agricultural products -- namely rice -- become cheaper on the Chinese market than domestically grown rice. And this will stoke what Beijing fears most: unemployment. Unemployment not only threatens the economy, it threatens social stability, and hence, the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) grasp on power. The CCP has managed to retain power thus far because it has delivered economic benefits. Not being able to deliver these benefits because of an economic slowdown, however, would spell disaster for the Party.

A second option to deal with the money glut would be to raise interest rates. This would make it less attractive for investors to take out loans, but it would also make servicing existing loans more difficult, pushing more loans on the brink of sustainability into the NPL category.

Rejecting these two options leaves the government with few mechanisms for restraining lending. Beijing has presented another option -- forcing banks to buy "special bills" issued by the PBC. This proposal is aimed especially at banks that have refused to rein in lending. Banks have already lent $26.2 billion in the first five months of 2006 -- two-thirds of the total target for the year, making lending 16 percent higher than at the same time in 2005. This has caused the overall money supply to rise 19 percent -- a level also exceeding government targets.

The new measure was tested June 13 when the PBC absorbed $12.5 billion by issuing one-year bills. The yield on the bills was set at 2.1138 percent, lower than the 2.48 percent rate of return normally offered by the bank. Beijing set the new yield rate as a message to unruly lenders: curb lending or face the consequences.

The new special bills constitute a stopgap measure to preserve China's banking system for just a while longer -- until another stopgap measure must be instituted. Chinese investors and banks are inured to Beijing telling them to slow down without taking any significant steps to back up its orders. When Beijing did enact a loan freeze in 2005, investors just went to the underground economy or to foreign banks to get loans. Furthermore, China's stopgap measures do not address the NPL problem, which is a major block in a teetering Chinese superstructure.

Beginning in January, when China is mandated by the World Trade Organization to open its banking sector to foreign competition, investors and businesses can go to foreign bank subsidiaries in China for loans. Then the fun will really begin.
Ben-T
The business cycle will catch up with China. Rapid growth + Easy money monetary policy = false bubble and recession.

The only problem is that the business cycle will catch up with us as well, albeit later on. We need a tighter money policy than we currently have, methinks.
John L
QUOTE (Ben-T @ Jun 16 2006, 12:58 PM) *
The business cycle will catch up with China. Rapid growth + Easy money monetary policy = false bubble and recession.

The only problem is that the business cycle will catch up with us as well, albeit later on. We need a tighter money policy than we currently have, methinks.


You are missing the most important part here Ben. That is the corrupt and unworkable loans that are bad and still remaing unreported. You really have to read the articles to understand what I am talking about.
Yohan
QUOTE (John L @ Jun 15 2006, 11:02 PM) *
I suspect that this crash will be worse than that of Japan. And Japan has Still not come out of it's deflationary malaise even now. For those, who are heavily invested in China, you may wish to invest elsewhere.

Yes, China is in big troubles. What do you expect from a Communist government?

To compare China with Japan is a bit wrong, if you ask me.

The area of Greater Tokyo (about 32 million people) is still producing more than all China with its 1360 million Chinese happy workers - and the income of the simple Japanese farmer in a remote region is still 67 times higher than an average rural income in China.

I wonder, if you have to change your US dollar, if you are choosing the valuable Chinese Yuan or the deflation-suffering Japanese yen...

Japan is still a bit better off than China, believe me...and China invites Japanese tourists to spend the Yen in China - for this reason all Japanese citizens are travelling visafree to China.

Up to you, if you like to take the risk to invest money into questionable businesses, bring it to China.
Some foreign companies there are already rather disappointed.
You can never trust that Chinese government.... just my opinion.
John L
QUOTE (Yohan @ Jun 17 2006, 11:49 AM) *
Yes, China is in big troubles. What do you expect from a Communist government?

To compare China with Japan is a bit wrong, if you ask me.


Not necessarily so Yohan. Both China and Japan use a similar familial system. In the business world, it is also much the same. Buiness families usually consist of at least one bank, producer of commodities sucha s steel, construction, automobiles, etc. They tend to make up a self-contained familial group, and they are almost totally endogamous . And the banks tend to loan to their group almost exclusively. this may appear to be good, but when a family member proves to be a bad loan, the bad loan is usually swept under the cover and not reported, because it makes the entire family look bad. This continues until soon, the system is loaded with bad loans, and the system must continually cover up this shortcoming.

Eventually, like with Japan, the system is so frail, that it folds up and causes huge economic problems. Japan is still trying to claw itself out of the hole it has dug over this system. China is doing the same thing, and it too is in for a fall. And like Japan, it is the same system that will prove to be it's stumbling block. the sooner the PRC reveals this and begins to make corrections, the better is will be.

But don't look for this until after the 2008 Olympics, and by then, it will be even harder for China to recover, much to the betterment of India. Place your bets on India for the future.


In case you missed this Yohan, here is the Decade Forecast from STRATFOR from last year with regards to China. If you look closely, the outlook has not changed and it is still salient.

QUOTE
On China, we said, "Our forecast is for a deeply troubled China, increasingly torn by domestic strife, with a government, in the face of it, alternating between brutal repression and helplessness." China appears to be facing no such intense struggle, at least on the surface. However, not far below these placid waters swirls a mix of economic, social, political and security issues waiting for the slightest external stimulus to bring them bubbling to the top.

As for the rest of East Asia, we said, "The Korean Peninsula will become the epicenter of tensions in Northeast Asia" -- a forecast we see taking shape. In Southeast Asia, we said, "Indonesia will continue to be the center of attention as it struggles to maintain unity and redefine its role among its neighbors" - again, a prediction we still stand by.

On the whole, Stratfor's long-term East Asian forecasts have been right on the money. However, we have always been bearish on China -- not for ideological reasons but for structural ones -- and our forecasts, which we believe remain fundamentally accurate, have not matched the bullish view that others give to the Chinese economy and national status. Our view of China's future is in stark contrast with the positive outlooks we see coming from investment houses and others.

One key reason for the difference is that most forecasts on China are linear -- in essence they say that since the Chinese economy is clipping along at 8 percent or 9 percent GDP growth each year, in 10 or 20 years China will dominate the global economy. Our basic supposition, however, is that the shape of the world today is probably the least likely shape of the world a decade or two out. The world operates in cycles, long and short, and linear extrapolations fail to take into account the reactions and arrestors on growth or decline. For example, in 1990, a year after the Tiananmen Square incident, the prediction that China would be the regional economic engine a decade later would have been laughable, as foreign investors fled the country and the hands of repression were clearly seen. A decade later, it was hard to keep foreign money out of China, and Beijing was even beginning to look at ways to slow the economy.

China is obviously a major factor for East Asia in the next decade. And in looking at China, the status of the economy -- particularly growth -- is the core issue. It is our view that China's economic growth rates, driven largely by foreign investment, trade and government spending, will continue to slow. This slowing will exacerbate underlying structural tensions in the Chinese economic system -- between the urban and rural areas, between the coast and the interior, between the north and south, between the rich and poor and between the center and the periphery -- and at its core between the state-controlled and market economies.

Why, then, if Stratfor sees a China on the verge -- if not already in the midst -- of massive internal upheaval, is there a general global acceptance of the idea that not only is China on an unstoppable rise, but that people should pour their money into the Chinese economy? In part, this is due to tunnel vision -- assessors of the Chinese economy are looking only at the booming center-coastal economies in and around Shanghai. In part, it is intentional self-delusion, a failure to connect the dots.

There is no shortage of reporting on the underlying weaknesses of the Chinese banking system, the state-owned enterprises (SOEs), the unemployment problems, the uneven distribution of wealth and labor and myriad equally troubling and seemingly insurmountable problems. However, the holy grail of selling a single orange to each of the 1.3 billion Chinese continues to blind others to the reality of the situation, and the desire for a piece of what someone else might get has fed a steady stream of investment into China, keeping the system on life support and "justifying" the positive outlooks.

But on this last point, something has been overlooked: In recent years, foreign direct investment (FDI) moving into China has declined, but this trend is hard to see clearly. U.S. investment in China was the key driver in bringing China up from the Asian economic crisis. Weary of waiting for the return on investment in China, U.S. investors slowed the flow of FDI. However, the herd mentality and the shiningly optimistic assessments of China as the next golden goose led to a successive wave of European investments. This was followed by Asian investors, who did not want to be left behind.

This rush of foreign investment and interest in China has masked the Chinese economy's underlying weaknesses and given the government tools to maintain control. But it will not last. Already there is dissent forming in the international community, and the need for quicker profits -- or any profits -- is driving companies and investors to look elsewhere. Rising interest rates and the perception of strong market fundamentals are bringing investments to the United States. High energy prices, sector bubbles and the resurgence of "China threat" fears are taking the shine off the Chinese economy.

Beijing has enjoyed a brief respite from these fears. The external pressures on China were set to increase in late 2000 with the election of U.S. President George W. Bush. By early 2001, China and the United States were in a tense standoff as a U.S. E-P3 sat on a Chinese runway on Hainan Island. The incident was resolved, but the strains on U.S.-Chinese relations were not relieved. The came the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States, and suddenly China became a back-burner issue. Beijing even became, briefly, a fellow "target" of international terrorism, convincing Washington that Uighur militants were tied to Osama bin Laden and out to create a greater Islamist state in western China and Central Asia.

But while Beijing had some time -- and took advantage of it to effect a relatively smooth transition from Jiang Zemin to Hu Jintao, the so-called Third and Fourth Generation leadership -- Washington's overwhelming infatuation with bin Laden, al Qaeda and international jihadism began taking a more proportional position in the American global strategy. For China, this means the return of U.S. pressure.

The same factors that led to the downfall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 are still inescapable today. China is showing classic symptoms apparent before the end of dynasties: the disruption of internal economic wealth, increasing gaps between rich and poor and between regions, the economic encroachment of outside powers and the undermining of the social contract with the state. The central government has lost its legitimacy after trading ideology for money that is now supplied from afar rather than from within.

The balance between the center, which seeks to pacify and stabilize the vast interior population, and the coastal periphery, whose economic and political interests lie in foreign trade and are therefore ultimately aligned more with foreign nations than the center of China, continues to create friction. The center, in order to maintain control of the interior, must take money from the periphery. Fears of issues of social stability lead the center to take action in the interior, which might be anathema to the interests of the coastal provinces.

China today has two economies: the import/export economy based in the densely populated coastal regions and the remains of the old Maoist SOE-based economy in the interior and the Northeastern "rust belt." FDI supports the import/export economy, while the central government must keep the SOEs afloat. In 2003, SOEs employed 375 million of 750 million workers and controlled 57 percent of the country's industrial assets. The SOEs are kept alive -- and at times bailed out -- by preferential bank loans, but the inefficient enterprises are giant capital vacuums, compounded by corruption and continued mismanagement.

Bad loans in China, most of which stem from lending to SOEs, have been estimated to reach as high as $500 billion -- by no less than the investment houses who have a vested interested in making this number appear as low as possible. That is not far off China's $609.9 billion -- as of Jan. 1, 2005 -- in foreign currency reserves. Beijing is constantly pulling from its own reserves to feed the state banks, which in turn feed the SOEs. Since 1999, Beijing has spent about $275 billion in asset transfers and bailouts in attempts to solve the bad loan problem. All such "fixes" have failed, since they do not require the SOEs to change their operating policies. The SOEs, in turn, feed the people who, under the communist system, came to expect -- and depend on -- the continued existence of a state-sponsored Iron Rice Bowl.

The coastal areas, where the import/export economy is based, received 87 percent of China's FDI in the last three years, but western China, which is home to many SOEs and farming operations, received only 3 percent of FDI in the same period. In these areas, where nearly a quarter of China's population lives, per capita income fell from 84 percent of the national average to 56 percent from 1980 to 1999.

The forces at work within China's SOE-based economy are preventing the country from capitalizing on its current growth and will eventually drain the energy from the import/export economy. Fearing the urban unemployed even more than the rural unemployed, since poor farmers at least have land and can feed themselves, Beijing is offering life support; but unemployment, which in 2002 was between 6.2 percent (official data) and 13.1 percent (estimated by a 2004 University of Michigan study), continues to rise. This triggers wave after wave of demonstrations and protests -- which have thus far been isolated incidents -- but the chances for coordination increase daily. And Beijing's only response will be repression, sending in troops to end by force whatever opposition it perceives, as it did at Tiananmen Square.

China recovered from Tiananmen not because of the continued crushing of the students and their supporters but through capitulation to the population, which resulted in the state taking a steadily decreasing role in the lives of the average Chinese. But this capitulation to the masses, while initially resulting in pacification, also has served to raise material expectations. Turning back is no longer an option. Beijing is, therefore, stuck. It options are limited and time is running out. The mandate of heaven, it appears, is being repealed.

Beijing knows the troubles it is in. The strains between the coast and the interior, the rich and poor and the north and the south are growing more and more tense, and Beijing's ability to maintain the system is fading. This is compounded by corruption, which not only drains government coffers but further de-legitimizes the Party.

China's leadership is presented with few options.

First, it can implement a sudden and swift overhaul of the entire economic system, similar to South Korea's actions following the 1997 economic crisis. This, however, would require a government characterized by lethargy and fear of social instability to make a sharp, painful and -- if done effectively -- relatively swift move. The massive social dislocation of such a move makes it untenable.

Second, Beijing could revert to the Deng and Jiang method of encouraging unabated and unequal growth at the expense of profit, occasionally trimming dead wood in SOEs, pumping money into the banks to recycle into the insolvent SOEs and thereby maintain the bare minimum of social stability to avoid significant unrest. Any small stirrings are met with crackdowns on social movements. This, however, only furthers the underlying structures that have rotted out China's economic expansion, and, in relying on the "Asian" model and the "Communist" model, it fails to address the true problems.

A third method is that being attempted by Jintao. This involves slowing growth a few percentage points, more closely regulating the economy from the center and trying to direct FDI into the worst of the SOE areas, namely the northeast. In the midst of this, Beijing seeks to take a million small steps toward addressing underlying weaknesses. This simply prolongs the pain -- even if regionally isolated -- and builds tensions between haves and have-nots. And it relies on foreigners' good will or poor judgment to invest in the worst of the Chinese state institutions. Ultimately, if social stability can be maintained (and this seems unlikely for long), China's best case is a sustained slump, reminiscent of the past few decades in Japan.

The fourth option is the "Mao" method: Close the country and economy and undertake a massive social restructuring. This is not really an option among the Chinese leadership, which has a vested interest in expanding trade with the outside world. It also would result in a loss of international power, at least for a decade or so. Without the ideological underpinnings that allowed Mao Tse-Tung's social revolutions, gaining any sense of national buy-in for another "Cultural Revolution" would be highly unlikely, and the opposition to such a path would be anything but quiet.

The first and fourth options appear untenable now and in the foreseeable future. The fight is not over closing the economy or keeping it open, but over the pace and scope of economic growth versus economic fundamentals. It is a core question of defining strength. While the "Hu" method has won out for now, if things start to bite -- and they likely will -- there will be a renewed push for the "Jiang" method, though whether China can entice others into a new "boom" too many times is unclear.

The government is challenged now to prove its legitimacy as the center of the nation. Under Mao, the underpinning was ideology and a sense of international embattlement. Under Deng and Jiang, that underpinning was the promise of money and material goods. China's rapid growth economy is very young, and tearing that promise away -- even in the name of market fundamentals -- is extremely dangerous. The only way South Korea managed it was to rely on a very close sense of ethnic nationalism and to put the blame for the pain on a non-state actor, the International Monetary Fund. China has neither the ethnic homogeneity nor pervasive sense of nationalism to ask for much self sacrifice, and the stresses on the system will continue to compound.

If China adheres to the World Trade Organization (WTO) accession agreement and opens its banking system in 2006, the SOEs will collapse, since China's banks would no longer able to funnel money to bail out non-performing companies. Strengthening the SOEs through reform creates massive new pools of unemployed labor, leaving even more disgruntled and disillusioned former state workers with no jobs and nowhere to turn. Ending bank lending to the state institutions creates hundreds of millions of new unemployed. A social cataclysm of that magnitude will tear the country apart -- or at minimum lead to the collapse of the Party and the government. Therefore, China will choose another path.

Beijing will want to prop up the SOEs as long as possible to buy time to convert them into productive members of China's economy. However, time is not on China's side; the country must open its economy before the SOEs can be converted. The center will want to forestall this as long as possible and is therefore unlikely to accede to its full obligations under the WTO agreement.

Beijing, then, will seek to mitigate the internal upheavals now apparent from the 1979 economic opening and reform the system. Mismanagement, rampant corruption and the combination of an Asian (growth-driven rather than profit-driven) and Communist (social control over profits) economy has left Beijing with few immediate solutions. If China slows its opening and reforms -- the most likely path, albeit done in a subtle Chinese way -- FDI will begin to dry as foreign investors shift away from China. When FDI dries up, growth in the import/export economy will slow down. When growth slows down, social stability issues will become more pronounced, since there will be less and less money to pump into the SOEs. Capital flight by Western investors already has begun, with Asian investors making up the difference, but they will be unable to sustain adequate levels for very long.

FDI decreases also factor into the rifts between the center and the periphery in somewhat unexpected ways. A decrease in FDI is what triggered the 1999 corruption crackdown. In 1999, FDI going into China decreased by more than 11 percent as a result of the Asian financial crisis. With less money coming into the country, the center tried to keep the SOEs afloat with money from the import/export economy. This was met with resistance in the periphery, and the center responded by moving in and taking what it wanted under the guise of a crackdown on corruption. In extreme cases, the periphery reacted violently; in others it simply took the money and ran.

China will struggle on through 2008. The Olympics are a powerful force, driving economics and providing a rallying point to keep divergent interests temporarily subdued. That will not last. Nationalistic entreaties playing off the Olympics, space programs and the like can do little to hold the disparate interests and factions together. Intentionally or not, the face of the Chinese Communist Party will shift in the years shortly following the Olympics.

The turmoil this will likely cause will lead to a loss of central control and a regionalization of power, as has often been seen in Chinese dynastic transitions, in which the country -- while nominally unified -- will in fact become a cluster of fiefdoms, effectively modern warlord states. The capital will have a national leader but the center's reach and influence will be at the mercy of the regions. In a place such as Afghanistan, this is called status quo; in China, warlordism -- only this time, there will be nuclear weapons in play.
Thaiquila
China has entered the capitalist markets.
They are the bull in the the China shop, as it were, he he good one, eh.
What that means is that it will become more and more clear they have the world by its short hairs!
Just because they are so darned BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGG
John L
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 17 2006, 01:54 PM) *
China has entered the capitalist markets.
They are the bull in the the China shop, as it were, he he good one, eh.
What that means is that it will become more and more clear they have the world by its short hairs!
Just because they are so darned BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGG


So, you did not even bother to read the articles, much less even one, right?
Ben-T
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 17 2006, 10:54 AM) *
China has entered the capitalist markets.
They are the bull in the the China shop, as it were, he he good one, eh.
What that means is that it will become more and more clear they have the world by its short hairs!
Just because they are so darned BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGG


Doesn't work like that.

China has horrible monetary policy, which matters alot, and now those bad loans to? They aren't looking well.
Thaiquila
I hope you are right, but I doubt it.
A powerful China is a scary thing.
I would much rather have a powerful US, even though I hate US foreign policy, the devil you know, as it were.
John L
QUOTE (Thaiquila @ Jun 17 2006, 02:15 PM) *
I hope you are right, but I doubt it.
A powerful China is a scary thing.
I would much rather have a powerful US, even though I hate US foreign policy, the devil you know, as it were.


If you would take the time to stop, read, and reflect on some economic concepts, you would not have to totally rely upon the word of others. Trouble is that you are too busy hopping and flittering from one thing to another quickly, answering flippently, and instantly moving on. Sigh, ..........what a waste of intellect. rolleyes.gif
Thaiquila
It takes all kinds.
Haupt
The greatest part of it all is we are all amongst the smartest out there...at least you guys are...and I consider myself to be for my age even though my grades aren't top notch...
John L
Here is the latest of what STRATFOR has to say about China. Indeed Interesting. Actually, quite serious implications.
QUOTE
China: Crisis and Implications
Jun 20, 2006

By George Friedman

The Chinese government is continuing efforts to cope with its runaway economy. The People's Bank of China has raised interest rates. Banks have been told to curb lending. The government has said that it will implement procedures to rein in foreign acquisitions at low prices -- or, in other words, to block fire-sales of Chinese companies. As a recent headline in the Japan Times put it, "China's Monetary Surge Dooms Its Boom."

A lot of things have gone into dooming China's boom, and the money surge is one of the more immediate problems. However, as we have argued (and this article should be read in the context of past analyses), the end of the Chinese boom was inevitable. The issue now is how all of this will play out in China and in the world.

What must be understood is that China now is moving from an economic problem to a socio-political one. The financial problem is a symptom; the fundamental problem is that tremendous irrationality has been built into the Chinese economy. Enterprises that are not economically viable continue to function through infusions of cash. Some of the cash comes from borrowing, some by exporting at economically unsustainable prices. The result is a squandering of resources. The reasons that this continues have nothing to do with economic rationalism and everything to do with political and social reality.

If interest rates were to rise and lending were to become disciplined, many of China's enterprises would fail. This would bring several consequences.

First, and most important, it would result in a massive increase in unemployment. At this point, the irrationality has been going on for years. It is not only state-owned enterprises that are economically unsustainable; many newer enterprises, including those in which Western companies have invested, are not succeeding. When we look at the figures for nonperforming and troubled loans, they amount to nearly half of China's gross domestic product. That represents a lot of irrationality, a lot of financial failures and a lot of unemployment. And unemployment is a political and social problem. The question is whether China politically can afford the economic solution.

Second, lending has become a system for maintaining the political solidarity of China's elite. Loans have been made not only to avoid the problem of unemployment; they also were made as part of political arrangements that allowed the Chinese Communist Party and regional party organizations to avoid conflict and divisions. As long as the pie was growing, everyone could have a piece. But if the pie starts contracting, there will be losers and winners. The question of who will go bankrupt and who will not will become a highly divisive and potentially destabilizing political crisis. Again, the economic solution -- austerity -- and political reality may run counter to each other.

Obviously, China has massive cash reserves. These may not be massive enough to cover the financial crisis, but they are sufficient to allow the government to put off addressing the problem for a while. China also has the ability to promulgate rules and regulations that allow bankrupt entities to continue functioning. However, it always must be remembered that on the other side of a bad loan is a damaged creditor. A loan that can be deferred by fiat is an asset that can no longer be used. When you avoid economic disaster for the debtor, you transfer the pain -- and potentially the disaster -- to the creditor. And since the creditor is normally the economically healthier entity, you postpone the death of the weak by weakening the strong. The more you do this, the worse it becomes. Thus, whether the Chinese use cash reserves to postpone the problem or use regulation to do so, the net result will be buying time at the cost of increased pain.

China's Likely Path

Asia has been here before. Japan encountered this problem around 1990, and East and Southeast Asia encountered it in 1997. Roughly three models for dealing with the problem exist:


Japan model: Use reserves and formal and informal measures to avoid actions that would trigger massive bankruptcies and unemployment. Accept economic stagnation for the better part of a generation.


South Korea model: Move rapidly to restructure the economy, using economic and political means. Control social unrest with security measures. Move out of the problem in a matter of years.


Indonesia model: Lacking resources to manage the crisis, suffer both financial dysfunction and political strife among the elite and between regions.

Japan was able to do what it did because it is a highly disciplined, cohesive society, in which shared pain is viewed as preferable to social dislocation. South Korea was able to do what it did because the magnitude of its crisis was relatively less than Japan's, and because the state had the means for suppressing unhappiness. Indonesia failed to do what it needed to do because it lacked resources and political power.

Other countries have fallen somewhere along this continuum. China will make its own path. However, it should be pointed out that China is not socially similar to either Japan or South Korea. Like Indonesia, China is a diverse and divided nation. The Communist Party lost its moral standing in the 1970s. As with Suharto's government, its legitimacy now derives from the fact that it has created prosperity. When prosperity slows down or stops, the Party cannot fall back on inherent legitimacy, as was the case with the system in Japan. And the wildly diverse levels of economic development make a single, integrated solution, as was used in South Korea, unlikely. The most likely direction for China, therefore, is massive social and political instability.

Now, the Communist Party may lack moral authority, but it does wield tremendous power. The People's Liberation Army and the various security forces are an enormous presence in China. Indeed, the government already is using its security forces aggressively, cracking down on dissent and against at least some business leaders, in anticipation of coming troubles. The ability to suppress unrest is not trivial. Therefore, the most likely path for China in a post-boom environment is to increase suppression and reimpose systematic dictatorship.

This is not an absolute given. There are many in the Party who now are arguing that China has abandoned its Communist principles and its social base. In other words, they want to reach out to the peasants in the interior, who have benefited little from the boom and who resent the prosperity of the coastal regions. The idea is to use these peasants in a process of renationalization -- or, at least, a process in which the free market is dramatically limited and at least some of the wealth is redistributed.

This goal makes little economic sense, but what China needs economically is unsupportable socially and politically. Imposing a crushing austerity for five to ten years would solve the economic problem, but it is unlikely that the political center could hold. Indeed, if the Chinese were to follow this course, they could do it only with massive political suppression at the same time.

The Party's Tangled Web

Therefore, one likely path is the reimposition of dictatorship, followed by whatever economic solutions the leadership might want to make. But there is a problem here: The interests of Party and People's Liberation Army leaders in Shanghai diverge from those of the central government. These leaders are deeply involved in the financial process of the coastal area, in bringing in foreign investment, in taking advantage of the nonmarket access to capital. They have no inclination to stop. Indeed, their wish is to see the irrational boom continue as long as possible.

There are splits in the interests of regional Party leaders, as well as a split between the regions and Beijing. The interests of coastal leaders lie not with Beijing so much as with Tokyo, New York and London. They have integrated themselves in the international financial system, and they are busy making plans for sustaining their regional enterprises in the event of a crisis. Meanwhile, Party leaders from the interior are demanding that these actions be stopped and that investment flow to their regions instead. Beijing is riding two horses that are running in very different directions.

Beijing well might fall off the horses. China has a history of cycling between a dictatorial system that closes it off from the world (a poor, but equal and stable China) and a system in which China is open to the world but torn apart from the inside out. Consider: Mao marched into the interior, raised a peasant army, came back and liquidated the internationalist bourgeoisie in 1948. He closed off the country and united it, throwing out the foreigners. Under the other model, preceding Mao, the country was open to foreigners, who tore it apart in regional conflicts while the interior starved.

The end result of China's economic crisis, therefore, will be a deep-seated political crisis. Only ever-increasing amounts of money have allowed China to maintain the current political alignment. Without that, it has two options. The first is a return to some sort of dictatorship from Beijing, under which economic problems would be dealt with inefficiently but unambiguously. The other is to accept a split between the coastal regions and the interior, the weakening of Beijing's authority and a period of instability and intense regionalism. It all depends on the political moves Beijing is making now, but our bet would be on the latter course. The instruments of power that Beijing has are too complicit in the financial crisis, and have too many diverging interests, to make the first option likely.

Geopolitics and Ripple Effects

Two possible geopolitical models emerge from this. Under one -- in its extreme form -- China returns to some sort of geopolitical Maoism. It encloses itself from the world, becomes increasingly bellicose but is limited by its own geography in what it can do. Under the other model, China slowly fragments and becomes a cockpit for the ambitions of foreign economic interests -- backed up by political and military power, with regional Chinese officials collaborating with foreigners to continue economic development. Oddly, the latter model would be more destabilizing to the world than the former, inasmuch as everyone will want to maintain their investments in China and expand them. In this scenario, China would again be a magnet for problems.

Mind you, these are not absolutes, but represent extremes on a continuum. There is surely a model under which Beijing would muddle through, as have the Japanese or Indonesians. No coherent strategy would emerge; it would all be tactical. It is difficult for us to see how this would not lead to regional destabilization, but then, China might be able to live with that. How it handles the unemployment and displaced peasant issue, however, is yet another question. This is a possible mid-point on the spectrum, but not in itself likely, it would seem.

As for the effects on the international economy, there has been a great deal of discussion about China's ownership of U.S. Treasury instruments and the consequences if that money were withdrawn in a crisis. In fact, this is the last thing that is going to happen. If China has a massive financial crisis, no one -- including the Chinese government -- is going to shift money from a safe haven into an uncertain cauldron. In crisis, the tendency would be a flight to safety. That means that rather than being pulled out, money would surge into the U.S. market -- legally and illegally, from the Chinese standpoint.

It is interesting to correlate the massive U.S. market surges that began in 1991, after the recession, and intensified dramatically in 1997 and 1998, with trends in Asia. In both cases, these surges followed major economic crises in rapidly expanding Asian economies. The events were, in our opinion, linked. The crisis in Japan in 1990 and 1991 led to major capital flight and helped to fuel the U.S. market rise. Similarly, the impending and expected East Asian meltdown in 1997 produced massive capital flight from Taiwan, South Korea and elsewhere to safer havens. A massive withdrawal from the U.S. market is the last thing to be expected.

What are in danger, of course, are foreign investments in China. There is the obvious financial issue: Many of these investments were not economically viable to begin with. But there is a political problem as well. The Party is going to have to blame someone for China's troubles, and it will not be the leadership. The obvious culprits will be corrupt officials and their paymasters in the international banking system. The truth or falsehood of the charge will matter little; corrupt officials and bankers already are being arrested, in the early stages of the crisis. As the situation intensifies, we would not be surprised to see foreigners investigated for corrupt practices as well.

But the bottom line is this: China has a history of nationalization and expropriation, and the party that enacted those measures is still in power. No one would have believed that the Party of Mao possibly could have become what it is today, but one should not assume that the evolution of the Chinese Communist Party is complete. Leaders could find that they have reason to re-enact some of Mao's own economic policies. We would be surprised to see a complete return to Maoism. We would not, however, be surprised to see the Party deliberately reverse some transactions that are no longer in its interests or (as and if things get more intense) take even more radical steps. It is still a Communist Party, it might be useful to recall.

Ultimately, the choice that China is now making is how quickly it will allow the consequences of its economic irrationality to unfold. The economic answer to the problem is to let shaky enterprises fall -- but the political cost of doing so will be too great, and a solution has already been long delayed. The longer an economic solution is delayed, the less one becomes possible and the more intense becomes Beijing's need to address the problem with political and security solutions. The more dependent the Chinese become on such measures, the more catastrophic will be the consequences if these solutions don't work.

China is long past the point of being able to solve the problem easily. The question is simply whether to buy time and pay in intensity, or force the crisis now. At some point, there no longer will be a choice. But the single most important thing to understand is that China does not really have an economic crisis any longer. The time for that has come and gone. There is now a political crisis at hand.
Haupt
china=pingpong ph34r.gif ph34r.gif ph34r.gif
kidan
A good post.

China developed very rapid in the last 15 years.
It did waste lots of resource and make very serious pollutions to the environment.

The problem of bank system is also urgence.Thursday ,ministry of audit announced that the Agriculture Bank of China has 26.77%bad loan,about 6892.9700.0000 RMB(80.000.000.000+ US$).

I am worried about it,it has a long way to go.
Fit2BThaied
It's logical that a Communist country doesn't know how to do economics, that a large country is prone to regional conflicts, and that a country with a billion poor people isn't going to be keeping 289,388 McDonald's restaurants busily churning out hamburgers and fries.

My friend has a 950 square foot condo in the best part of Shanghai that is worth $250,000. My daughter has the same size home in one of the best neighborhoods in Texas, and her place is only worth $150,000.

China doesn't know how to do capitalism, which is the only game that plays nowadays. They surely don't know how to lend money, something which Texans, Japanese and Korean bankers also have trouble doing correctly. smile.gif
Laredo
QUOTE (Fit2BThaied @ Jul 15 2006, 06:31 AM) *
It's logical that a Communist country doesn't know how to do economics, that a large country is prone to regional conflicts, and that a country with a billion poor people isn't going to be keeping 289,388 McDonald's restaurants busily churning out hamburgers and fries.

My friend has a 950 square foot condo in the best part of Shanghai that is worth $250,000. My daughter has the same size home in one of the best neighborhoods in Texas, and her place is only worth $150,000.

China doesn't know how to do capitalism, which is the only game that plays nowadays. They surely don't know how to lend money, something which Texans, Japanese and Korean bankers also have trouble doing correctly. smile.gif



What is phenomenal in the comments is the absence of recognizing that the conversion of the US dollar Chian has picked up in our "bad debt" (a financial disaster pulled off by Bush) to any other currency in the world is going to have our own economic system go belly up...which would fall into Bush's design to make Canada, the US and Mexico all one nation much in the fashion there is a Euro nation in Europe which uses a new currency. No surprise that the treasury bills have been bought up by the bush family which will make them wealthy when they create a new monetary system.

Instead of looking upon other nations as being so backwards, it helps to see that your own has designs which do not act in your best interest. If you're going to study China, look at the political introductions into their market place starting with Nixon.

BTW, Shanghai is a separate nation. It is not part of China....
Su Guo
Many viewpoints here are too simple, too naive, the way you guys look at this world is like this-----because it is a communism country, it will ..........., because it is a totalitarian country, it will ...........

Many economists are trying to find a model or theory to forecast economy, they failed, just like forecasting real property or currency market, it is not wise to say China will economically collapse soon.

China is a strange country, China is not Soviet Union.

The biggest threaten to the developed countries is China's huge intellectual resource as well as India's, 2 million uni graduates every year are China's future sustainable competitive advantage, once China update its industry and become both labour-intensive and tech-intensive industrial country, the order of this world will change sharply and deeply. Of couse the biggest barrier for China is its corrupted goverment, it is a bottleneck.

Anyway, USA shelters so many China's corrupted officials and their families, they are your hostages, do not worry about that, if communism party still control China, they are afraid to really offend USA
Fit2BThaied
QUOTE (Su Guo @ Aug 24 2006, 08:42 AM) *
Many viewpoints here are too simple, too naive, the way you guys look at this world is like this-----because it is a communism country, it will ..........., because it is a totalitarian country, it will ...........
Su Guo, you made many good comments in that post, but the first thing you say seems most important to me. "We" - Euro/American Caucasoids with our Western educations and outlook - try to look at foreign countries, other systems and cultures, etc., and we over-simplify. Even though we know that our own political history's use of such words as "liberal" or "conservative" are over-simplified, we then try to shove those imperfect terms onto a country and economy which are literally foreign.

The part of China I've seen - upper class Shanghai - is nothing like what they told us during our university days. And while Shanghai surely is part of China, it is radically different from other provinces around China.

Hey guys, we Westerners should start by admitting that even our Ph.D. professors (liberal or otherwise) don't know. I was just reading a long article about Sub-comandante Marcos and the Zapatistas ph34r.gif ; I understood a small fraction of it in English, no more. Shall we admit our ignorances?

Thanks again, Su Guo. Are you a boy named "Su"? laugh.gif
Razin
QUOTE (John L @ Jun 16 2006, 05:09 PM) *
... That is the corrupt and unworkable loans that are bad and still remaing unreported....


I think I know what you mean John !

I've read else where recently the explanation version of what and why actually has happened in Thailand during '97 crisis - and surprisingly the main reason was names - same kind of loans by Thais, NOT Soros or whatever foreigners responsible !

here is small addition to China subject :

THE GREAT SQUANDERER
China's Scramble for Energy
By Wieland Wagner

QUOTE
With a rapidly expanding economy, China doesn't have enough of its own natural resources to cover its growing energy needs. Beijng is trying to close the gap by increasing its imports and by betting on nuclear energy and renewables.

... while China's increased efforts to exploit its own oil and natural gas reserves provide some relief, the country's supply isn't enough to satisfy the long-term demand -- which is growing inexorably.

The same is true of its metal and mineral resources. Whether it be iron ore for steel plates or copper for electric wires -- anything that can be bought, the Chinese are buying it. And as a result they're pushing up world market prices, at least temporarily.

China's economy is expanding at an average rate of nine percent every year. Economic planners in Beijing recently discovered that their economy is actually 17 percent larger than they had previously thought. That's as if the Chinese had accidentally discovered an economic surplus the size of Turkey's Gross Domestic Product. {oops ! blink.gif }

The consequence is that China is getting even hungrier for energy....While China is responsible for only four percent of the world's overall economic output, it's already consuming 13.6 percent of the world's energy.... Since 2000, China has been responsible for 93 percent of the increase in global iron ore shipments.... So it's understandable that China wants to break the foreigners' price monopoly.... The gap between rising world market prices and China's domestic prices is causing serious harm to China's oil giants, and they're having a hard time explaining their problems to foreign equity holders....

But money is hardly an issue for the Chinese government, whose currency reserves of more than $850 million are now greater than those of Japan.... {wow ! ohmy.gif I didnn't know that !}

How much electricity does China really need?
China wants to build as many as 30 new nuclear reactors over the next 14 years -- about two a year... The Chinese themselves hope nuclear technology will allow them to make a technological leap forward. They want to build the world's first commercial pebble-bed reactor. This type of reactor is said to be far safer than current reactors, as uranium oxide isn't contained in fuel rods, but in round graphite containers the size of tennis balls.
But these gigantic construction projects can only satisfy part of China's energy needs: They'll only increase nuclear energy's contribution to the overall electricity supply to four percent. And so the red leaders are starting to think green: Their most recent five-year plan vows to reduce energy consumption per GDP point by 20 percent....


no wonder they support Iran and try to get direct oil deals with Arabs ! 031.gif
Su Guo
QUOTE (Fit2BThaied @ Aug 24 2006, 07:09 PM) *
Su Guo, you made many good comments in that post, but the first thing you say seems most important to me. "We" - Euro/American Caucasoids with our Western educations and outlook - try to look at foreign countries, other systems and cultures, etc., and we over-simplify. Even though we know that our own political history's use of such words as "liberal" or "conservative" are over-simplified, we then try to shove those imperfect terms onto a country and economy which are literally foreign.

The part of China I've seen - upper class Shanghai - is nothing like what they told us during our university days. And while Shanghai surely is part of China, it is radically different from other provinces around China.

Hey guys, we Westerners should start by admitting that even our Ph.D. professors (liberal or otherwise) don't know. I was just reading a long article about Sub-comandante Marcos and the Zapatistas ph34r.gif ; I understood a small fraction of it in English, no more. Shall we admit our ignorances?

Thanks again, Su Guo. Are you a boy named "Su"? laugh.gif


Thanks, Fit, Su is not my surname as well as given name, Su Guo was a country or kingdom during East Han Dynasty over 1000 years again, which was located in my hometown---Chengdu.

When you comment Shanghai, I think you had better some ideas about Chinese culture and value---Face Value, Shanghai is China's face. Face value is an essential value in Chinese culture, that is why luxury version and Bentz are so popular in China and its periphery regions such as Hongkong, Taiwan as well as Singapore. Also China's socialism political system and more and more market-oriented economy system contribute some reasons to this strange phenomena.

I agree with you on that Shanghai is very different from the other parts of China, same as Being and Shenzheng, but I have to say the reason that Shanghai is Shanghai is that it is part of China.
Felix
QUOTE (Ben-T @ Jun 16 2006, 10:58 AM) *
The business cycle will catch up with China. Rapid growth + Easy money monetary policy = false bubble and recession.

The only problem is that the business cycle will catch up with us as well, albeit later on. We need a tighter money policy than we currently have, methinks.

China has quite undeveloped institutions and financial sector. In case of recession I guess China will suffer a lot.
ustrader
China a massive giant a bridge to far.

Problems of China are mass, distance and the world understands of it. It can be seen through its not so obvious cracks as it operates in the traditional ancient shadows of ”face,” letting be seen what it wants, making sure, often with super efforts, to hide what it does not want seen. It is what has escaped from that Pandora ’s Technology Box that is most illuminating China for the Chinese. It is this tool, which opens once hidden flashes of the multi-dimensional and opportune world, which now reflections deep inside the usual surface tension glow of China. It is enlightening the once isolated unenlightened, to the existence of a multi-layered economic system, outside of China for sure. But, far more importantly opened more in view to what is inside of China, with the many hundreds of millions of surface tension “haves,” and deep water China, the far larger hundreds of millions of “have-nots,” who now know of this surface tension glitter and hidden opportunity and want it too.”

Chinese rulers have escaped for centuries in abilities to isolate the masses from the world and that usual better off 10% of China. Therein, is China’s great weakness, it’s size, which is only matched by its hunger and thirst for more. In this year of the Olympics, with China’s rulers egos so inflated in “face’ showing of their power, they will have to face stages of post Olympic reflection. On the one hand the joys of pride and ego and on the other a national consciousness which will have time to reflect on what has happened and more importantly where the hundreds of millions of “have not,” stand in these rulers ability to feed the beast. A beast who only gets hungrier as you feed it more and more.

The question for China will be how, no, if it can even deal with the hidden hunger of the beast that is within China’s hidden and inopportune masses. Those who have been on balance, a very substantial majority of the people who have been left behind, resentful, cynical, threatened, and envious of the few hundred million winners in the big rich coastal cities and favored classes.

As this hungry beast seeks more and more, the Chinese rulers face an already economic earthquake that is building in large waves off its coast. Simply put, China’s manufacturing edge is held together in massive tension singularly held by but one bolt of advantage, cargo containers. Some say it cheap labor, low to non-existent regulations and so on. Some say it lies in their US dollar holdings, which is really a weakness, not a strength. To weaken the US and it ability to pay its debt is to weaken the food chain that feds this growing hunger within China. In alternative sources of manufacturing abilities for US, there are those handily available and in fact transitioning as we speak.

I say, and I am confident it lies in the cost of Transportation and its impact on container shipping. The very blood, literally, of China existence and economic advantage in a land of hungry beasts which cannot be feed enough, fast enough. A land which sits on bridge to far from the alternative to China’s manufacturing brilliance which now shines on the surface belying the massive tensions underneath, linked on weak bridge, a bit to far in an Oil shocker and unprepared world were distance equates more and more to costs.

OIL SHOCKER
Stung by Soaring Transport Costs,
Factories Bring Jobs Home Again

By TIMOTHY AEPPEL

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1213319345...=googlenews_wsj


Felix
Check out this link : more on Chinese banking sector...
Felix
China has quite weak institutes, that can make China vulnerable to crisis. China has inefficient stock market and also about bond market.
Besides Chinese banks are also a problem. They have a tendency to accumulate non-performing loans over time. Despite several recapitalizations, it is estimated that nonperforming loans hold 40% of total loans that seems quite alarming.
Grizzly
QUOTE (Felix @ Oct 1 2008, 09:44 AM) *
China has quite weak institutes, that can make China vulnerable to crisis. China has inefficient stock market and also about bond market.
Besides Chinese banks are also a problem. They have a tendency to accumulate non-performing loans over time. Despite several recapitalizations, it is estimated that nonperforming loans hold 40% of total loans that seems quite alarming.

Yes, I know Felix. You try telling this to one of our every-once-in-a-while-I'll-drop-in-and-participate supply-side economists. He never seems to be bothered by the Chinese buying up our country
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