This was sent to me so I am passing it along...love the lyrics and the music. It begins with a little background from Shoebat and other brave souls, enjoy.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=d9oX5Q2ftmA

Hey Stealth... nice to see you again.

Let's go at it.

I'll win.

LOOK CLOSER, my dear Stealth. Go to college. Educate yourself. Use your mind and reason, not your testosterone to reason and solve problems and relate to others. Take some history and some religion courses. Cut through the bulldung...

Some problems are best solved by eliminating them. MARK

There are Sufis who are very peaceful and follow the teachings of Haydar. Then there are these monsters who unfortunately millions of Moslems follow and feel it is the answer to their problems. The Qu'ran is a peaceful book. The terrorists who use it to recruit kids to do their killing while they get fat and rich in the Mosque should die.

A big step should be Congressman Ellison stop receiving blood money from CAIR, and stop being photographed with HAMAS terrorists. I know he is Nation of Islam, but that doesn't make it any better. The Original Seed gangsters were just as bad.

Please don't confuse Islam with the politics of those who call themselves Muslims. That's the extent of what I have to say, in a nutshell, about this thread.

MrLeft, your ignoranse has no bounds........................................




The Reality of Islam

These videos speak for themselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuCLC8kjWCI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5t5EqWX92k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMztM0Z7BYE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Zv3BUmwqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvjvNScmTQA

Politics is too much a part of the doctrine of Islam for there to be confusion.




MARK

You would need to read the koran to make that determination. Obviously you have not



How can you make such a claim with a straight face? MARK

LOL! You don't know me or my level of education and I have kicked your backside so many times and so many ways it really doesn't matter. You claimed to be a teacher (assisstant), but I have corrected you on your facts on several occassions and have caught you out in outright fabrications on several occassions. You are not logical or honest. You sir are an easy mark.

You have given me some advice so now I shall do likewise. Grow a spine, some character and some moral fiber, then anytime you wish to continue our discussion on Islam let me know.

MrLeft, your ignoranse has no bounds........................................






The Reality of Islam

Are you making this decision for yourself based on your own actual readings? Or are you just letting some yokel's website think for you? Surely, you can articulate your endlessly misinformed opinion, and flesh it out... If it's so rock solid and you speak truth, surely you can demonstrate that through scripture itself... Or maybe we'll arrive at the conclusion that I posted earlier in the thread - that you merely (and stupidly) confuse the politics of those who call themselves Muslim for Islam. In that spirit, might as well save us the debate and the time... just get it through your thick, bigoted skull.

But, of course, I'm sure you won't be able to resist. Hmm... Just so happens I have a Quran right here, as well as extracts of the traditions for reference. You have a Quran? I'm sure you do... you're a scholar, right? I'm reading Yusuf Ali's English translation - probably the standard... So hopefully we'll be on the same page. Since you presume to know what you're talking about, maybe we can reason together about your claim. Referencing the Quran, perhaps you'd like to demonstrate precisely how it is an "instruction manual of terrorism." As I've read it, I'm afraid I'll have to go ahead and disagree... In fact, I see the precise opposite. I think it's a beatiful book.

So let's get to it! Let's crack some books, here, and go over this stuff. So what have you got for me, champ?

Also, for the sake of argument, be sure to read the post directly following this one... it's a good'n.

And what is "ignoranse" you speak of? There's no such word!! I don't get what you're trying to say, here...

The eloquence of your bloviation cannot save Islam from the evil which is at its core. As the old saying goes you can put lipstick on a pig, but you still have a pig! Islam is very fat, ugly pig.

Since you are a scholarly, pathological reprobate and you believe the Qu'ran to be beautiful, please do explain the beauty of Qu'ran 9:29.

Here is the verse you quote.



Indeed... one might find evil here, especially if he knew absolutely nothing of the rest of the Sura or of the context in which the Sura was recorded, or of the revelation that Muhammad received from this Sura. Also, no Christian, Jew, or Muslim would agree that one may understand the spirit of a faith based upon a single verse, standing alone. That's a cheap trick used by any fool who doesn't feel like taking the time to understand the full content of what another is saying... indeed, since time began! Perhaps you'd like me to quote from Deuteronomy, or from the book of Philemon. What evil might one find there if we were to use single verses as quotes with which to judge the character of the entire faith in question! How convenient, then, it must seem for you to be a righteous judge... But I digress... your method is idiotic, and you have no other purpose than to embarass one who seeks the truth - a truth you happen to hate. Indeed, you fail to grasp the full context of the Sura in question because you've never read it!

In this sense, let us get into the meaning of the 9th Sura of the Quran... which, as you'll see, is most certainly not in the spirit of uncontrolled, unreasoned violence, as you seem to suggest. It is a Sura about respect for God and His Will, about respect for oneself, and about the ability to overcome when one is faithful to God.

Let's read:






We have to put the Sura, and therefore the 29th verse of the Sura, in context, my dear Stealth. Indeed, what we have here (if we also read the entire Quran up to this point) is a political and diplomatic history of the struggle between the pagans and the early Muslim community with a prophetic twist. We must remember that the Pagans in question are none other than the Quryyash - the pre-Islamic pagan tribe of medieval Mecca. Indeed, if you were one to read history, you'd know that Muhammad's earliest encounters in his cave with the Archangel compelled him to obey God - to write down the Revelation, and seek converts. His first convert was his wife Kadijah. From there, Islam was essentially a small prayer group. But the Jews, Christians, and Meccan pagans had none of it. The Jews were happy to more or less reject his message and ignore him, while the Christians were few and far between at time, at least in the oasis area of Arabia, near Mecca, from where Muhammad began his ministry. But the Pagans - these were ones who were happy to persecute and eventually eliminate Muhammad and Islam.

By borrowing from the ancient pagan symbols, the growing numbers of his sect, and his evangelism, Muhammad threatened the political stronghold in Mecca, which relied upon the pagan religion to bring in charity and business - which, of course, supported the Quryyash political order. Muhammad, despising the unworkable social and political environment, removed to Medina, having been invited there by believers, guided by God to take Muhammad in. After his remove to Medina (al-Hijrah), Muhammad was in a position of power. He had the means to protect himself. He had the means to command economic power. He had the means to stake a claim in the regional economy, and to challenge the hegemony of the pagans. It was a matter of survival, for the Quran discusses a boycott against the fledging Islamic community in Medina. It was necessary to strike, then, or to face elimination at the hand of the tribe from which he came.

The above verses tell the tale of mercy, but also of the willingness and necessity of fighting the aggressors who would not have peace. As you can see, in the above verses God compells Muhammad to honor his treaties with those splinter Quryyash groups who allied with Muhammad to gain power over rival clans. But, in the end, God reminds Muhammad that he must not sleep with his enemies, as it were, even if it gives him temporal advantage over the core of the Quryyash. In God's mercy, he reminds Muhammad that he also must extend mercy to those pagans who were unwilling to fight, or who would have peace and submit to the community to which they sought to be a part - even after these tribes sought Muhammad's extinction. God tells Muhammad, as well, that those pagans who honor their treaties are righteous, and should be afforded leniency. According to God in the Quran, these people have shown their worthiness to learn the truth.

The Sura goes on:




Here, as in the last group of verses, God reminds Muhammad that He is in control - that His reach is long, and that He knows all things. He reminds Muhammad of his sacred mission, and of the evil in the hearts of the pagans. He reinforces his message that belief in God will result in salvation (as I intimated to you in my last lengthy post in this thread - remember? The three meanings of the Arabic word "Islam"?) - not making treaties with one's enemies. God is wrestling with Muhammad here... He asks him, as he asked before in the Sura - "who do you fear more? The pagans, or Me? Don't you know that my rewards are far greater than the rewards of a false peace with evil men?"

God most explicitly reminds the Muslims to be faithful to God, and observe prayer and worship, to keep their spirits clean and their sensitivity to God fresh.

The Sura goes on, and here we come to your verse, Stealth:




Here, God reminds Muhammad of the aid He gave to him... Great victories against his enemies... a way out when there seemed to be none. God is clear to Muhammad - don't make peace with your enemies, don't forget what they did to you, even as you gave unto them a revelation representative of the truth of God - not a man-made faith through which the elite may profit.

He says to Muhammad fight your enemies!! Have faith in the God that brought you this far! Fear not the swords of the Quryyash or the Books of the other faiths. He is telling Muhammad - plain as day - don't let your faith flag, don't let your trust fall. Men may be powerful - they may persecute - they may think they more than you - but in the end, it is God who sends you. Remain faithful to this truth!!

And it is here that I leave you, Stealth.

The rest of the Sura goes on to discuss theological issues with the enemies of Islam. But from the beginning of the Sura until we come to your verse, we clearly may gather some useful context that seems quite contrary to the spirit in which you reference it. If you'd like some clarification on any of the above verses or the history behind them, please cite Sayyed Nasr - "The Heart of Islam," for in his first chapter he discusses in detail the persecution that Muhammad was subjected to under the Quryyash. Another good source is Bernard Lewis' "The Arabs in History," for his third chapter confirms what Sayyed says, as well as the essential message of this 9th Sura.

Persecution, indeed, is a common theme in the early stages of any religion's development... For instance, we see in Revelation a dream-like account of the destruction of the beast - a metaphor for the fall of Rome... In Exodus we see God's wrath and destruction of the Egyptian Army... Here, in the Quran, we see God telling Muhammad to take heart, to stand firm against his enemies - indeed, enemies who persecuted and were unjust to the faithful. In all these examples - from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, God always tries to lead the persecutors to salvation... As you'll see with Paul's mission, Moses's mission to the Pharaoh, and God's reminder to Muhammad to be merciful to those who submit to Him... But, for the wicked - those who insist upon being murderous and those who continue to mock God and persecute his people - in all the faiths, we can see that God isn't one to take such insults.

Wow! Takes a pretty tortured interpretation of these verses to charachterize them as "peaceful". Even with your attempt of candy coating.
Here is a little bit more accurate description of the different treatment of non believers at different times during Mohammad's life.



Everybody ends ups either as a Muslim, or those who Muslims are commanded to fight against.

First of all, as I have informed you before, I do own a Qu'ran and guess what? I have read it. I see your bolviation continues, perhaps the beauty of Islam had escape you at the moment. My narrow choice of 9:29 was of a purpose and it has been served.

In this sense, let us get into the meaning of the 9th Sura of the Quran... which, as you'll see, is most certainly not in the spirit of uncontrolled, unreasoned violence, as you seem to suggest. It is a Sura about respect for God and His Will, about respect for oneself, and about the ability to overcome when one is faithful to God.

All I can say to that is LOL!

Let's read:
9:1
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with
whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:−

Hmmm! "immunity what do the pagans need immunity from?

9:2
Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.

Sounds like Allah going to punish somebody, who does the punishing?

9:3
And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the
day of the Great Pilgrimage,− that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations
with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

Hmmm! "grievous penalty for rejecting Islam.

9:4
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into
alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

So as long as Pagans behave Muslims can have treaties with them. What happens at the end of the term? Actually what happens when the Muslims feel like ending it? There are examples.

9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find
them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft−forgiving, Most Merciful.

When the time has passed when it is forbidden to fight, then do unto them until they submit and become one of you.


9:6
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the
word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are
men without knowledge.


9:7
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except
those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

Hmmm! As long as the Pagans, with agreements, are cool, then you be cool, otherwise. Uhh! What would be considered not cool?

We have to put the Sura, and therefore the 29th verse of the Sura, in context, my dear Stealth. Indeed, what we have here (if we also read the entire Quran up to this point) is a political and diplomatic history of the struggle between the pagans and the early Muslim community with a prophetic twist. We must remember that the Pagans in question are none other than the Quryyash - the pre-Islamic pagan tribe of medieval Mecca. Indeed, if you were one to read history, you'd know that Muhammad's earliest encounters in his cave with the Archangel compelled him to obey God - to write down the Revelation, and seek converts. His first convert was his wife Kadijah. From there, Islam was essentially a small prayer group. But the Jews, Christians, and Meccan pagans had none of it. The Jews were happy to more or less reject his message and ignore him, while the Christians were few and far between at time, at least in the oasis area of Arabia, near Mecca, from where Muhammad began his ministry. But the Pagans - these were ones who were happy to persecute and eventually eliminate Muhammad and Islam.

You were still having trouble describing the beautiful part of Islam, I see. We needn't fear that you will evenually get around to it. In the mean time, let's dissect this bit of B.S. you are spreading here.

Muhammad was member of this tribe of which you wrote and it is a lie to say Muhammad was persecuted by his other tribal members. The Muslims drew first blood by attacking and robbing four merchants, from Muhammad's own tribe, during the forbidden time, on orders fom Muhammad granted by revelation. Go pedal that revisionist somewhere where they don't know any better.

By borrowing from the ancient pagan symbols, the growing numbers of his sect, and his evangelism, Muhammad threatened the political stronghold in Mecca, which relied upon the pagan religion to bring in charity and business - which, of course, supported the Quryyash political order. Muhammad, despising the unworkable social and political environment, removed to Medina, having been invited there by believers, guided by God to take Muhammad in. After his remove to Medina (al-Hijrah), Muhammad was in a position of power. He had the means to protect himself. He had the means to command economic power. He had the means to stake a claim in the regional economy, and to challenge the hegemony of the pagans. It was a matter of survival, for the Quran discusses a boycott against the fledging Islamic community in Medina. It was necessary to strike, then, or to face elimination at the hand of the tribe from which he came.

This is such revisionist boulderdash, it doesn't even warrant further comment.

The above verses tell the tale of mercy, but also of the willingness and necessity of fighting the aggressors who would not have peace. As you can see, in the above verses God compells Muhammad to honor his treaties with those splinter Quryyash groups who allied with Muhammad to gain power over rival clans. But, in the end, God reminds Muhammad that he must not sleep with his enemies, as it were, even if it gives him temporal advantage over the core of the Quryyash. In God's mercy, he reminds Muhammad that he also must extend mercy to those pagans who were unwilling to fight, or who would have peace and submit to the community to which they sought to be a part - even after these tribes sought Muhammad's extinction. God tells Muhammad, as well, that those pagans who honor their treaties are righteous, and should be afforded leniency. According to God in the Quran, these people have shown their worthiness to learn the truth.

I suppose if someone is paying protection to the Mafia it is a form of mercy. I'll remind you no one was fighting the Muslims until they began attacking non-Muslims. Can anyone say Hamas or Palestinian?

Your logic here is so twisted you should face east and pray. Why are Muhammad's allies really his enemies? Why do Pagans have to submit? Another lie, the Pagans did not seek Muhammad's extinction, as well they should have. If they had done so at the beginning of Muhammad's prophet career there would be no Islam today.

The Sura goes on:
9:8
How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they
respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their
mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are
rebellious and wicked.

9:9
The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered
from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

9:10
In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have
transgressed all bounds.

9:11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,− they
are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who
understand.

9:12
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,− fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

9:13
Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

9:14
Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers...

Here Allah explains how his punishment is to be delivered, by the faithful.


From 9:8 onward, God reminds Muhammad that perhaps, he is not seeing the forest for the trees - indeed, the Quryyash, ethnically speaking, are his kinsmen and his brothers... but God warns him not to lose sight of the truth - these men tried to kill Muhammad, and stifle the Islamic call because they were greedy. The Islamic message, by the Quran, came from God. In this sense, Muhammad, as a servant of God, must keep to the point - the Quryyash hate God's truth, and they care not for it. They only want to hold onto their illegitimate political power, and in the end, eliminate Muhammad.

No one tried to kill Muhammad or tried to laid hands on Muhammad before he went to Medina. The Pagans were practicing their own beliefs. They could be expected to reject Muhammad's message. Let's be clear, no one tried to harm Muhammad and greedy is the man who takes others property by force, putting them to the sword while doing so. This last is straight up Islamic propoganda.

God goes on to tell Muhammad that the Pagans have done great evil... as if God asks Muhammad - "Can't you remember!? They tried to kill you! They taunt you for your faith!! - And even if they talk a good one and make treaties with you, I, the Lord, have seen their evil deeds!!" God is reminding Muhammad to keep to task at hand - the survival of the Ansar Al-Islam - the community of true believers.

More propoganda and lies. No one tried to harm Muhammad before he went to Medina.

But, a thing you keep missing, Machinist, is the thread of mercy and peace that runs through this Sura - the last two verses I reference above clearly provide for mercy, even to these evil ones who have no wish but to destroy Muhammad. There is always room for peace - but if it a fight the Quryyash want, then it is a fight they shall have.

You are a stooge. Peace as a slave; peace paying protection is no peace at all. The alternative become one of them. No thanks that will be for people like you.

The Sura goes on:
9:15
And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All−Knowing, All−Wise.

9:16
Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well−acquainted with (all) that ye do.

9:17
It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

9:18
The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the
Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all)
except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

9:19
Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah: and Allah guides not those who do wrong.

9:20
Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with
their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the
people who will achieve (salvation).

9:21
Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure...

Here, as in the last group of verses, God reminds Muhammad that He is in control - that His reach is long, and that He knows all things. He reminds Muhammad of his sacred mission, and of the evil in the hearts of the pagans. He reinforces his message that belief in God will result in salvation (as I intimated to you in my last lengthy post in this thread - remember? The three meanings of the Arabic word "Islam"?) - not making treaties with one's enemies. God is wrestling with Muhammad here... He asks him, as he asked before in the Sura - "who do you fear more? The pagans, or Me? Don't you know that my rewards are far greater than the rewards of a false peace with evil men?"

He reminds Muhammad? Those verses are not speaking to Muhammad. That's quite a liberal leap of interpretation.


God most explicitly reminds the Muslims to be faithful to God, and observe prayer and worship, to keep their spirits clean and their sensitivity to God fresh.


The Sura goes on, and here we come to your verse, Stealth:

9:22
They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

9:23
O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

Islam is nothing if not tolerant.


9:24
Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the
wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in
which ye delight − are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His
cause;− then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.

The usual type old time religious threat.


9:25
Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle−fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.

9:26
But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.

Who is the tool of Allah's punishment?

9:28
O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs,
approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All−knowing, All−wise.

9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath
been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Uhhh! So you put this in context did you and the meaning is somehow changed? Yeah right!

Here, God reminds Muhammad of the aid He gave to him... Great victories against his enemies... a way out when there seemed to be none. God is clear to Muhammad - don't make peace with your enemies, don't forget what they did to you, even as you gave unto them a revelation representative of the truth of God - not a man-made faith through which the elite may profit.

LOL! Let us not forget Muhammad was a raping, murdering, brigand. His great victories were first against four unarmed merchants, from his own tribe. The battle of Badr was a successful armed robbery, of fellow tribe members going about their means of commerce.

He says to Muhammad fight your enemies!! Have faith in the God that brought you this far! Fear not the swords of the Quryyash or the Books of the other faiths. He is telling Muhammad - plain as day - don't let your faith flag, don't let your trust fall. Men may be powerful - they may persecute - they may think they more than you - but in the end, it is God who sends you. Remain faithful to this truth!!

Allah tells Muhammad to fight his enemies, who happen to be non-Muslims, who were going about their business for the most part until the devil come call.

And it is here that I leave you, Stealth.

The rest of the Sura goes on to discuss theological issues with the enemies of Islam. But from the beginning of the Sura until we come to your verse, we clearly may gather some useful context that seems quite contrary to the spirit in which you reference it. If you'd like some clarification on any of the above verses or the history behind them, please cite Sayyed Nasr - "The Heart of Islam," for in his first chapter he discusses in detail the persecution that Muhammad was subjected to under the Quryyash. Another good source is Bernard Lewis' "The Arabs in History," for his third chapter confirms what Sayyed says, as well as the essential message of this 9th Sura.

The enemy of Islam is anything which is deemed un-Islamic. And as such is fair game; The Qu'ran says so.

Persecution, indeed, is a common theme in the early stages of any religion's development... For instance, we see in Revelation a dream-like account of the destruction of the beast - a metaphor for the fall of Rome... In Exodus we see God's wrath and destruction of the Egyptian Army... Here, in the Quran, we see God telling Muhammad to take heart, to stand firm against his enemies - indeed, enemies who persecuted and were unjust to the faithful. In all these examples - from Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, God always tries to lead the persecutors to salvation... As you'll see with Paul's mission, Moses's mission to the Pharaoh, and God's reminder to Muhammad to be merciful to those who submit to Him... But, for the wicked - those who insist upon being murderous and those who continue to mock God and persecute his people - in all the faiths, we can see that God isn't one to take such insults.

Too bad the concept of religious persecution doesn't apply to Islam. Muhammad was mostly ignored, until his behavior began interfering with the Pagan practices and wealth it generated, even then Muhammad was not even threatened, just told to stop.

One should always remember the Muslims drew first blood, during the forbidden months on Allah's orders thru Mohammad. Four unarmed merchants were waylaided and killed for their goods. That is all it takes to be an enemy of Islam. Nice try!:popcorn:

Well, my friend, this debate ends here. I don't believe I need to defend what I wrote, nor do I feel the need, in this instance, to defend the Quran; you really don't say much in this little response of yours worthy of responding to.

Believe what you will, Stealth. Let's leave it at that.

God Bless.

And this is what a left wing fool does when confronted with facts, reason and logic. They run away from the debate like a puppy from someone holding a rolled newspaper.

"God Bless"? We do not want or need the blessing of Allah, apparently YOUR God of choice...........

LOL! There was no debate just propaganda control. If one is clear and honest about what Islam truly teaches, then any defense is impossible. The best anyone Muslim can do is to practice Islam as a different sect of Christianity. You know, take the parts of Islam you like leave the rest and pretend like they don't exist.

For example, I was talking to a Muslim woman, just this week, telling her about a Muslim man I use to know. This man took his wife back home, to his country of origin, to have his wife's father displine her for disobedience. Her offense was giving him a hard time for coming home late, on ocaasion, drunk. His wife had informed this man, after the first time, the next time he laid hands on her she would call the police. The wife's father greeted them at the airport and began displining her on the spot. The Muslim man returned home after a brief holiday. His wife came back, six months later, after a six month tour, all submissive and properly trained. The woman I was talking to expressed her strong dislike for this Muslim man and how she would not allow herself to be treated that way. Being the smart #####, I pointed out that the Qu'ran permits the husband to beat his wife. She told me I was lying, "The Qu'ran says no such thing," where upon I offered to show her where said sanction could be found. She refused to have anything more to do with it, much to my amusement.

Wife beating another beautiful aspect of the Qu'ran. Or how about the way the Qu'ran speaks about the love of man toward a woman or woman toward a man...maybe you can apply that eye for the beauty of Islam to those subjects.

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Even though wahabits are a bit rough.... there is no evidence they support or comit terrorism, unlike USA/israel who are 1000x more extreme, and dangerous then the wahabits.

Well that's a relief. Galloway says it is so, and of course it must be so.

Hey do you know any beautiful, "like poetry" verses from the Qu'ran? I can't seem to find any, although I have been told they are there.

So if you do not like the religion, do not practice it! Why bring this up? Oh and by the way, if you know of ther passage and showed it to her, please provide the link!

Do you really think anyone is listening to you distort things you have no clue about?

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html

MARK

You are right, I don't like Islam. I definitely do not practice it or have any respect for it for that matter. I stay on the subject of Islam in order to counter the ignorance, denial and deception about its core tenets, which appears to be so pervasive in the world. I did not show her the verse because she said she didn't want to see it nor did she wish to discuss it further. What were her motives? At best ignorance and denial. She ain't a Jihadi. She is no help in countering Jihadist doctrine. She is in fact an apostate. A Muslim in name only, pretending that Islam is like Christianity.

You and Mr. Left, both, have taken exception to my positions; both of you have trotted out the usual misconceptions, lies and propoganda; both of you have been sent to the showers, mulitple times. Both of you seem to be quite satisfied to be defenders of Islam, regardless of the history and facts. The question I would like either of you to answer is why? What is it? Is it hate of country, Christians, and Jews? Is it maybe hate of culture, self, parents or maybe nihilism? What make you both defend that which is truly indefensible?

Thanks Dixon for providing that verse a second time.

Have you ever read the old testament? It is extremely violent and sexist. Women are stoned for adultery, but what about the men? Why is that? It is not about the religion, it is about the indigenous culture! Middle eastern culture is extremely sexist and male dominated. I know many muslims who find sexism and violence against ANYONE deplorable. However, it seems that we have this rhetoric being spewed by the so called conservatives all over the radio who want to condemn an entire religion because of the actions of some of those who practice it. Some christians believe that the bombings and killings at abortion clinics is an keeping with god's words. Does that make christianity this aweful religion? This is the same as blaming the religion of Christianity for the crusades and the inquisitions. It was not the religion but the whack jobs that distorted it to promote their own gains! To say that a religion is indefensible because of the actions of MEN truly has no basis in reasoning.

I have no hatred of christianity, christians or the jews. I am anti-Zionisim because it robbed the land of it's inhabitants to satisfy a world racked with guilt because of the holocaust. I have nothing against the Jews, but the Zionists do not want to live with the other semetic people of that land....they want the land for themselves. And the world (mostly fundamentalists christians) supports that because they believe it is a biblical prohecy come true. Why do these Americans who are so much for the Zionist movement so against the indigenous people of the Southwest US coming back to that region?

I love my culture, actually. Is it an American culture? No, because cultures are indigenous and we are not indigenous to this land. I am Germanic so I love my culture and my ancestry. You can even agree that to be proud of having Northern European ancestry is extremely politically incorrect in this day and age. However, with my pride in my folk, I also have MUCH respect for other indigenous cultures. I am definately not nihilistic...quite the contrary. I am not a christian, I am a Norse Heathen because it is MY native ancestral folkway. So to be nihilistic goes against everything I believe in.

To make a blanket assumption like you have is nothing short of hatred. There is too much hatred in this world and in this country. Hatred festers in your body and in your soul and affects your wyrd (sort of like Karma....life energy). This affects your luck and life...I truly believe that. We need to direct our energies in other directions.

If we had jews advocating the stoning of women, based upon scripture, I might see your point.
Their culture IS A PRODUCT of their religious doctrine. This whole Jihad against the non believers to re establish the Caliphate to rule the world is part of their doctrine. Fortunately the majority of Muslims who are not fundamentalist do not follow the literal word of the doctrine. Doesnt mean that those who do, are not following doctrine. Criticism of the Islamic doctrine is valid. If there were a minority of Jews stoning women according to doctrine, I would be quick to condemn that doctrine, EVEN if the majority of Jews chose not to follow the literal word of the doctrine. MARK

Have you ever read the old testament? It is extremely violent and sexist. Women are stoned for adultery, but what about the men? Why is that? It is not about the religion, it is about the indigenous culture! Middle eastern culture is extremely sexist and male dominated. I know many muslims who find sexism and violence against ANYONE deplorable. However, it seems that we have this rhetoric being spewed by the so called conservatives all over the radio who want to condemn an entire religion because of the actions of some of those who practice it. Some christians believe that the bombings and killings at abortion clinics is an keeping with god's words. Does that make christianity this aweful religion? This is the same as blaming the religion of Christianity for the crusades and the inquisitions. It was not the religion but the whack jobs that distorted it to promote their own gains! To say that a religion is indefensible because of the actions of MEN truly has no basis in reasoning.

Yep, I have read the old testament. Your equivalency gambit is a crock, something which has pointed out to you before. The eternal, immutable tenets of Islam are the actual word and will of Allah. Islamic dogma is fixed in divine concert and gives divine sanction to the monster impulses of men.

I have no hatred of christianity, christians or the jews. I am anti-Zionisim because it robbed the land of it's inhabitants to satisfy a world racked with guilt because of the holocaust. I have nothing against the Jews, but the Zionists do not want to live with the other semetic people of that land....they want the land for themselves. And the world (mostly fundamentalists christians) supports that because they believe it is a biblical prohecy come true. Why do these Americans who are so much for the Zionist movement so against the indigenous people of the Southwest US coming back to that region?

I seem to have struck a nerve. You don't hate Jews, but you seem to hate Zionism, which I consider the N word for Jews. You accuse the Israelis of not wanting to live with other "semetic people." Since many of those other people want to see every Jew dead, I don't blame them for wanting to live apart.

I love my culture, actually. Is it an American culture? No, because cultures are indigenous and we are not indigenous to this land. I am Germanic so I love my culture and my ancestry. You can even agree that to be proud of having Northern European ancestry is extremely politically incorrect in this day and age. However, with my pride in my folk, I also have MUCH respect for other indigenous cultures. I am definately not nihilistic...quite the contrary. I am not a christian, I am a Norse Heathen because it is MY native ancestral folkway. So to be nihilistic goes against everything I believe in.

Ahhh! Is that a tinge self hate? Could it be a feeling of White guilt?

To make a blanket assumption like you have is nothing short of hatred. There is too much hatred in this world and in this country. Hatred festers in your body and in your soul and affects your wyrd (sort of like Karma....life energy). This affects your luck and life...I truly believe that. We need to direct our energies in other directions.

I made no assumptions. I asked a question in an attempt to understand what makes people like you and Mr. Left tick. You both deny, apologize and excuse a belief system, which is barbaric, founded by a man who was a rapist, murdering sand pirate. You and Mr. Left, both claim I am full of hate for writing the truth about Islam and what it really teaches. You both fail to make your case and reveal yourselves to be dishonest, illogical in the process and when confronted with the facts you can't refute craven ideologues.

Excuse my interjection, but I am here to help all I can.


I note that you, Mr. Left, do not grasp that the only virtue of omnipotence, is the assumption of omnipotence, perhaps you are musing in a mirror of self awareness, transposing in delude as to others their inferiority supposing you lack thereof? That is the very virture you have, perhaps, of which I speak, don't you think?

Your hatred will be your early end. It is very unhealthy. If you read anything I said, I have no feelings of white guilt or self hate. I told you that I embrace and even LOVE my northern European heritage. In this day and age, it is terribly politcally correct to be white and proud, but I am. However, I embrace and love all indigenous cultures of the world....they have something to offer us all! You want to jump up and down for our good friends in Israel. Zionists is another N word? Do you know how many VERY Orthodox jews that were anti-Zionists? You can't see that this white guilt decision by the UN has created a powder keg in the middle east? Why the heck would you live where you are not wanted? All in the name of God though right? Our good friends committed an act of war on June 8, 1967 when they attacked United States Intelligence Ship, the USS Liberty. Our ship was flying the stars and stripes and several Israeli planes flew by our ship on several occasions. They attacked us and killed our boys..an act of war! If ANY other nation in the world would have done that, we would have crushed them like bugs! Here are some quotes by several officials in the Johnson Administration.....





However, our congress has been bought and sold by AIPAC for decades!!!

You must be clueless of history. Try looking up and reading the history of pre-muslim Iraq (Mesopotamia, Babylon), Iran (Persia). Then maybe you will see that their culture has been unchanged for centuries. It is not the religion, it is the people who practice it! Remember what I said above, all in the name of God. God and Allah are one and the same...sorry to inform you of that. They both revere Abraham as the father of their religion.

Once again, your hatred for other people may be the sign of self hate...I am not sure nor am I a psychologist. However, your hatred for something you are ignorant to or do not understand amounts to nothing but bigotry!

And your defense and praise for something you are ignorant to or do not understand amounts to nothing but ignorance. MARK

Pre-Muslim Mideast?? Where do you think that goat fker mohammad was born? In Cleveland? You really don't have a fn clue do you LC??

LOL! You must provide some examples of this hatred you are referring to, although I can understand how you could think truth and facts are unhealthy. Truth and facts are not the place for a mind like yours. I don't much care about what race you are. I find it strange though that you would bring it up to explain why you are not a nihilist in a previous post. Wow, so you love "all indigenous cultures of the world." I don't, only elements of cultures which frees and encourages individuals to reach for their potentials.

LOL! I don't jump up and down for Israel. I express opposition to those of you who would stomp Israel into dust if you could. The powder keg in the M.E. is Islam and why the heck would you stop people from living where they wish to live? Hmmm! USS Liberty, I understand.

However, our congress has been bought and sold by AIPAC for decades!!!

Hmmm! Conspiracy theories, mothers milk of the paranoid and hateful.

You must be clueless of history. Try looking up and reading the history of pre-muslim Iraq (Mesopotamia, Babylon), Iran (Persia). Then maybe you will see that their culture has been unchanged for centuries. It is not the religion, it is the people who practice it! Remember what I said above, all in the name of God. God and Allah are one and the same...sorry to inform you of that. They both revere Abraham as the father of their religion.

Why do you think I'm clueless about history? Ahhh! I see you subscribe to the Islamic playbook. It's the culture, not Islam...completely false premise, right up there with, "You can't understand Islam except in the original Arabic" or "The meaning was taken out of context. Islam an Arab supremacy ideology, which strives to dominate the culture it inhabits. If the culture does not change it is because of Islam.

Once again, your hatred for other people may be the sign of self hate...I am not sure nor am I a psychologist. However, your hatred for something you are ignorant to or do not understand amounts to nothing but bigotry!

Once again, please provide examples of hatred and do note, I have made the this request to you before, months ago...still waiting.

And here we have rebuttal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_ZqeR27Mg...related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo7-T63UEJE...=related&search

Check out all the other links while you are there, but caution if these guys sound reasonable, you have just entered the "Twilight Zone".

dixon76710...how odd... is this another of your (transgendered) Janus-like faces, Stealth? You certainly think like he would (dubiously!)... you read the partisan garbage that Stealth would read (might I add, without thinking or reading for yourself from the Quran), and then act like you've come up with some ground-breaking, damning bit of detail. Well, you fail. You refute nothing from the ninth Sura! Your single sentence commentary at the end of your post is led by someone else's commentary (e.g., opinion - tafsir). My dear... you are certainly no exegete.

I think it would be helpful for you to understand the history of the Rashidun Caliphate... the Caliphate of the first four successors after the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)... as well as to understand the history of Arabia from the time of Muhammad's birth to the time of his death - not even, necessarily, a history penned by a Muslim. There are so many wonderful books on the subject that really put the Quran in its proper historical and cultural context. You see, we need to consider the Quran in and of itself (a book with it's own difficult, murky history), the oral tradition and poetry of the Arabs (from which the style and substance of the Quran, in many ways, is derived), as well as the modern histories of Arabia during that time. Then, we have to pull these aspects together to grasp the true context of these things!

e.g.: Look at the first few chapters of the first two, and the entire third entry below:

Endress, Gerhard. An Introduction to Islam. New York: Columbia University Press, 1988.

Hourani, Albert. A History of the Arab Peoples. Cambridge: The Balknap Press of Harvard University, 1991.

Kennedy, Hugh. The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates: The Islamic Near East from the Sixth to the Eleventh Centuries. London: Longman, 1986.

If you can find them (My local library has these): look for Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddima (translated by Franz Guillaume), as well as The Life of Muhammad by Ibn Hisham (translated by Alfred Guillaume). These are both very ancient texts from the Abbasid era, but offer a look into the Muslim's understanding of his faith during the Islamic Golden Age, as well as how Muslims wrote scholarship.

I also recommend a copy of Yusuf Ali's English translation of the Quran, which may be downloaded online for free, or gotten (probably for free) from the Islamic Center of Buffalo. If not, go to Rochester's Islamic Center and ask Salahuddin Malik for a Quran - he'll give you one on the house.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on this paragraph by doing your own reading. What other details can we get from the scripture reading behind this copied-and-pasted post? I advise you to get a Quran, to read it, and judge it for yourself without partisans doing the thinking for you. The Quran itself says that God guides the seeker. The Quran is a beautiful book... Will you be challeneged, and will you read? Or will you allow another to think for you? Surely, you value your ability to think and to reason enough to throw off these partisans, and to gain your own understanding. You can read, can't you? So read the Quran, and study it. You'll gain nothing by commenting on the Quran without reading it and understanding it. You'll impress no one by commenting on the character of Muslims without understanding them. Learn about this history of the Arabs, and the history of Islam. A very rich history emerges. A wonderful book emerges. If you're inclined to see God this way, then do so. If you're inclined to understand the Arabs and Muhammad through it, then do so. If you're inclined to continue to hate Islam and Muslims, then do so - but at least you'll have made the effort to read and to grasp what you're speaking of, without having to post other people's commentaries. Not that you care, but if you are man/woman enough to take the challenge and buy a Quran, try not to put it on the floor.

You and Stealth - if you're the same person (it not, whatever) - I'll be happy to read these things with you, and help you in any way to grasp it.

Investigative Project on Terrorism Alert


The new documentary Radical Islam; Terror in its own words will air in its entirety on Saturday, February 3 at 9:00 pm ET, Sunday, February 4 at 4:00 pm ET and Monday, February 5 at 3:00 am ET.The Investigative Project on Terrorism provided footage and assisted the producers with the documentary.

Well Mr. Left you are a wonder. You come out every once in a while with the same old Islam sugarcoating nonsense, only to run and hide again when you get your head handed to you. It is "partisan garbage" I read now, is it? Tell me why is it if my resources are such garbage, why it is you have been caught omitting info; telling half-truths and total lies? And I might add, which I have been so kind to point out. You said Islam was beautiful. I offered you to explain the beauty of verse Qu'ran 9: 29. You did try, but you failed miserably.

I think it would be helpful for you to understand the history of the Rashidun Caliphate... the Caliphate of the first four successors after the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)... as well as to understand the history of Arabia from the time of Muhammad's birth to the time of his death - not even, necessarily, a history penned by a Muslim. There are so many wonderful books on the subject that really put the Quran in its proper historical and cultural context. You see, we need to consider the Quran in and of itself (a book with it's own difficult, murky history), the oral tradition and poetry of the Arabs (from which the style and substance of the Quran, in many ways, is derived), as well as the modern histories of Arabia during that time. Then, we have to pull these aspects together to grasp the true context of these things!

Really do we have to understand all of that, why? I mean I understand three of the Four Righteous Caliphs met with violent ends. I found this quote, which I believe puts Islam and Muslims in proper context:

Comparing Islam’s "infallible holy-writ" and demands on adherents with the actions of hypocrites claiming other faiths is a demonstration of ignorance (which can be cured). Islam is a religion, a martial philosophy, a rules-based culture (even more-so than Judaism), and legal system all rolled into one, with death the only escape allowed. Muhammad himself dedicated Islam to eternal, holy war - with the conquered wishing to retain their previous identity treated worse than animals, without rights, and forced to pay an onerous tax (Jizya) to be allowed to live as a non-Muslim under Muslim control - killed or enslaved on a Muslim’s whim with negligible consequences; not unlike killing someone's domestic animal.
A "moderate" Muslim is a hypocrite by definition; deserving a fatwa, that a "good" son, brother, father, cousin, or husband might well accomplish - as submission to God’s will must overrule all other loyalties among Muslims. Argue with the clerics?
Were one to studiously comply with the Qur’ân, and emulate Muhammad’s deeds and words as described in the various hadith, I can’t imagine what evils would be left for Satan to claim. If there were really a Satan: "father of Lies," with the will to dominate, desecrate, and destroy humanity, how else but through a brutal, uncompromising religion might such be reasonably accomplished?
Think about it.__Opar5

.....
If you can find them (My local library has these): look for Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddima (translated by Franz Guillaume), as well as The Life of Muhammad by Ibn Hisham (translated by Alfred Guillaume). These are both very ancient texts from the Abbasid era, but offer a look into the Muslim's understanding of his faith during the Islamic Golden Age, as well as how Muslims wrote scholarship.

We have been over this before, the golden age is a myth, something which occurred not because of Islam but in spite of it Islam. All the oil money that has been flowing for decades is modern proof of the Golden Age lie.

I also recommend a copy of Yusuf Ali's English translation of the Quran, which may be downloaded online for free, or gotten (probably for free) from the Islamic Center of Buffalo. If not, go to Rochester's Islamic Center and ask Salahuddin Malik for a Quran - he'll give you one on the house.

Yeah, they do like to give away free Qu'rans. One of my copies I received free for the asking. Jihad comes in many forms.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on this paragraph by doing your own reading. What other details can we get from the scripture reading behind this copied-and-pasted post? I advise you to get a Quran, to read it, and judge it for yourself without partisans doing the thinking for you. The Quran itself says that God guides the seeker. The Quran is a beautiful book... Will you be challeneged, and will you read? Or will you allow another to think for you? Surely, you value your ability to think and to reason enough to throw off these partisans, and to gain your own understanding. You can read, can't you? So read the Quran, and study it. You'll gain nothing by commenting on the Quran without reading it and understanding it. You'll impress no one by commenting on the character of Muslims without understanding them. Learn about this history of the Arabs, and the history of Islam. A very rich history emerges. A wonderful book emerges. If you're inclined to see God this way, then do so. If you're inclined to understand the Arabs and Muhammad through it, then do so. If you're inclined to continue to hate Islam and Muslims, then do so - but at least you'll have made the effort to read and to grasp what you're speaking of, without having to post other people's commentaries. Not that you care, but if you are man/woman enough to take the challenge and buy a Quran, try not to put it on the floor.

The Qu'ran says a lot of things, what of it? The parts which concern me are mean, nasty and intolerant. I understand the Qu'ran is a book, which is impossible to understand without instructions. Then there's that aborgation concept, something that is not talked about when speaking about the beauty of Islam. Why you would have to create something like the hadiths to begin making sense of the Qu'ran. Ooops, they did that.

Mr. Left I do believe you are a Muslim. Don't put the Qu'ran on the floor, why would you care? I had a Muslim friend over a fews months age. Upon seeing a Qu'ran on my coffe table, this person began to lecture me on why the Qu'ran should be put in a place that is a higher position than other books in my place. I told this person, I wasn't a Muslim and I would put the thing on the floor if I chose to. America is a great place.

You and Stealth - if you're the same person (it not, whatever) - I'll be happy to read these things with you, and help you in any way to grasp it.

No thank you Mr. Left. I tend not to take info form a confused, proven liar.

Amidst Bloodshed, Millions of Muslims Pray for Peace
TONGI, Bangladesh (AP) -- Some 3 million Muslims put aside their country's violent struggle with political corruption and Islamic extremists and raised their hands in prayer for global peace at one of the world's largest religious gatherings.

The final prayer Sunday capped a three-day Islamic gathering on the sandy banks of the River Turag in a small industrial town just north of Dhaka, Bangladesh's capital.

Pilgrims, many of whom left work early to joi