http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070406/ap_on_...s_crucifixion_1


AN PEDRO CUTUD, Philippines - Seven devotees were nailed to crosses on Good Friday in a northern Philippine village where the rites drew thousands of tourists and spectators.
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The Lenten ritual is opposed by religious leaders in the Philippines — Southeast Asia's largest predominantly Roman Catholic nation. But it has persisted to become one of the country's most-awaited summer attractions in San Fernando City's San Pedro Cutud village.

The devotees' palms and feet were attached to wooden crosses with 4-inch nails soaked in alcohol to prevent infection after a nearly mile-long walk to the mound, each carrying a wooden cross on their backs.

Among the yearly penitents in San Pedro Cutud was Ruben Enaje, a 46-year-old commercial sign maker who was nailed to the cross for the 21st time on Friday.

Earlier in the day in the same village, dozens of half-naked men hit their bloodied backs with bamboo sticks dangling from a rope in a flagellation rite meant to atone for sins.

More than 100 foreign tourists flocked to this year's Good Friday rites, with many of them seated on a stage at the side of the mound.

"They take this religion to the extreme," observed Gomas de Miguel, a tourist from Spain. "In Spain, we say we are Catholics but we don't do this anymore I think."

"It's not my belief, but I know that they are sincere in what they are doing so I respect it," said American tourist Dennis Smith.

The difference is, that the Muslim government approves of suicide bombing. 5 christians once a year nail themselves to the cross to show what the Lord did. I do not compare this to suicide bomings and deceit like found in many of the muslim countries every day.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Then Zimri, who commanded half of the royal chariots, made plans to kill him. One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa's reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and he did not leave a single male child. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu. This happened because of the sins of Baasha and his son Elah and because of all the sins they led Israel to commit, arousing the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, with their idols. (1 Kings 16:9-13 NLT)

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

I see your angle, MrLeft.. and it does make righties like ustrader look like a totally uninformed bigoted hypocrite, which he appears to be.

Indeed, all rightiest can do is reduce religion to text, even just a few verses of text, over which they presume to have authority... This is no better than Bin Laden or Mullah Omar! While the terrorists compel adherence to scripture by reducing Islam to their interpretation of cherry-picked verses, ustrader or Stealth encourages hatred for Islam and the Qur'an in much the same way. In this sense, the reasoning of righties and the terrorists share a common thread, as well as a tragically simplistic, anti-intellectual outlook.

But we can't sink to that level. These are pre-modern books... written by pre-modern men, however divinely inspired. They don't posess inherently our very modern sense of morality, or our brand of political polemic, such that ustrader tends to spout. Surely, you and I can see that, and we can put these things aside to get at the nuggets of truth God would want us to get from His scriptures...

Indeed, both the Bible and the Qur'an are beautiful books.

First off you grammatical syntax is appalling.

And when did anyone on this board that refutes your naive perspective of the world invoke the Bible regarding the war on militant Islam??

Substitute lefties for righties above and you will be more on the mark.

Of course. But why is it that those following the Bible are not slitting the throats of their percieved enemies. But why is it that those following the Bible are not strapping bombs to themselves to go out and kill innocent civilians? But why is it that those following the Bible are not flying planes into buildings killing thousands??


You fools real are living in your own little world of delusional denial. I pity you....................

Muslims are speaking out against terrorists and even our leaders are trying to stop this bigotry against Muslims...THE PROBLEM IS THAT NO ONE IS LISTENING. This past week alone, the head of homeland security and Joe Lieberman both said that American muslims are doing their part. They are speaking out to their community and helping the gov't wheree they can...Unfortunately not Fox News, NBC, CBS, ABC or CNN reported on it. The only place you would have seen it is on CSPAN or LINK-TV.

On topic: the earlier parts of the Old Testament require divine genocide. The later parts of the Old Testament, and all of the New Testament, is actively pacifist. The 'far right' of the political spectrum in the USA, especially those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, ignore Christ's commands to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, bless those who curse you, etc. The Christian right does not use or follow Scripture in preaching how Christians should face the enemies of the State.

But they refuse to listen. And they - the Christian right - are far more liberal than the true Christian conservatives, the Amish!

However, you may have to grant some concession to the Christian militant right: instead of strapping bombs onto themselves, they simply bless the war machine that kills for them.

Perhaps the violent Christians would be converted to Christian pacifism by methods that don't call their methods an immoral heresy, but I tried that approach, and it didn't work, either.

Let's try: God loves you. God loves your enemy. At this time, God doesn't want you and your enemies killing each other, if either of you claims to follow the commands of Jesus.

The first act of terror in Palestine was the bombing of a 5-Star hotel in the then Palestine, 1948, I think it was, I think the idea was to destabilize and undermine the legitimate govt. of Palestine. The bombing was carried out by none other than Menachem Begin, later Prime Minister of Israel. It was for that act of violence against civilians that earned Menachem Begin the title of "The World's First Terrorist". This is not news I gathered from an Arab Website. This is part of the History of Insurgency. It is in Public Domain.

As for suicide bombers, I think you will agree that there will be no suicide bombers, men, women or children, if the Arabs from Algeria in the 60's to Palestinians in 2007 had their own Airforce, Navy, Army and Marines. Give em some helicopters and some tanks for a start, why don't ya.
I guarantee suicide bombings will drop off to nothing. Bet you a case of Colt45's.

Your first mistake is your erroneous belief that you can think independently of the bilge you seek on the net.
Lets start with who was rating hotels with stars in 1948.
And now please provide legitimate information on the mythical entity you call Palistine. What were the borders and what form of governence did they live by?? Did they have UN representation?? Were their ambassadors dispached to other countries to promote an exchange of interests and commerce?

Or was Begins bombing a retaliatory act against a bunch of beduin goat fkrs that still live in the 10th century. Fact is your hallowed UN created the state of Israel and doing so put some sense of modern civilization amidst a cesspool of koran worshipping pigs. Israel has never been the aggressor here. She attacks only upon provcation. and will continue to do so................

I'm not too familiar with the rules of this board, but this is a personal attack, which usually warrants a suspension/ban. It's unfortunate that you replied in such a childish, cretin manner. You're not really adding much to the conversation with a comment like this.

I posted those quotes because it was said that the Quran preaches violence and killing. Well, so does the Bible.



I think I've already answered your questions, Nomad. But, as I expected, it may be useful for me to spell the answer out for you in simple and succinct terms, because you don't seem to grasp it on your own...

You ask, essentially: why do some Muslims commit terrorist atrocities, some of which include suicide operations? The answer is as follows: because some impressionable people who feel powerless over their own affairs are easily led by charismatic sociopaths who, under the guise of religion, manage to convince these followers to commit atricoties and to cultivate a bigoted outlook; terrorist leaders cherry-pick scripture and claim absolute mastery in interpreting that scripture as their source of authority. Their followers are utterly and totally convinced of the truth of what they are told for whatever reason - probably because fundamentalism derived from Wahhabism does not recognize the legitimacy of any of the four schools of Sunni law, nor do they engage in tafsir or fiqh. Reasoning such as ijtihad is absolutely out of the question. Indeed, since their doctrine depends upon truncating the Islamic legal tradition and twisting Islamic ethics in such a way, they unnaturally inflate their own authority because there then are no built-in mechanisms that might check the legitimacy of their pronouncements, namely declaring fatwas or prescribing jihad as a matter of individual duty. Bin Laden is operating far outside the pale of traditional Islamic law, not reviving it or clarifying it. Bin Laden is patently anti-intellectual; he and his lieutenants pray on fearless fools, even if many of them are not, as it were, stupid - e.g., Muhammad Atta.

The motivation for the leadership in this twisted enterprise is to acquire regional and global political power, as well as power over their adherents. The motivation for the followers is to feel as if they are in control of their lives and eternal destinies; essentially, to find and assert some kind of meaning in their lives. Simplified yet perverted Islamic law makes it easy for both to accomplish their respective goals.

And for these words I am delusional?! I think it is your delusion that you think you can reduce a dynamic, constantly-evolving religion and civilization composed of billions of individuals to a few choice verses of the Qur'an... just as it is Bin Laden's delusion that he can pull the strings of millions through his own emotional, politically charged ideology by referencing a similarly small number of stand-alone Qur'an verses. Indeed, both Bin Laden and yourself are quite similar kinds of fools.

And... let me get this straight - you claim that Christians have never engaged in what may be called terror? Hmm? They've never killed innocents? Never used bombs? Never cut throats? Never imprisoned the innocent? ... You, my friend, are either a liar, or very naive. Perhaps a bit of both...

If you'd like me to elaborate on any aspect of this post, I will be glad to.

There were star rating in the forties. In fact star ratings became into being when silent films of the 1890's became famous, and the ratings were a measure if you could see that many stars at a place in a night.

And how do you know of the freedoms in that part of the world? How do you know what sacrafices were made in Malaysia or even Asia in general. How can you so blithely say that the freedoms are given as easy as playing with a toy army?

And there is no people that are born evil. They do not have a mark of Cain on them, they work and live and love just the same as any other people. Just because you do not understand their life does not mean you can eliminate them as a bad people. Just as they should not eliminate other that are different.Are you so blinded by your own hate that you would be no better than to have your own mark of Cain upon your soul?



While LooseCannon's timeline is a little off (the King David Hotel was bombed by the Irgun in July 1946, killing over 100...most of them British), other than that he is pretty accurate....a few other Middle East "acts of terror" for you...

October 31, 1946, Rome. The British Embassy in Rome was damaged by a bomb, planted by Irgun.

November 7, 1946, Palestine. Railroad traffic was suspended for 24 hours throughout Palestine following a fourth Irgun attack on railway facilities in two days

November 9 through November 13, 1946, Palestine. Nineteen persons, eleven British soldiers and policemen and eight Arab constables, were killed in Palestine during this period as Jewish terrorists, using land mines and suitcase bombs, increased their attacks on railroad stations, trains and even streetcars.

January 2, 1947, Palestine. A wave of terror swept Palestine as Jewish terrorists staged bombings and machine gun attacks in five cities. Casualties were low. Homemade flame-throwers were used in several cases. Pamphlets seized warned that the Irgun had again declared war against the British and Arabs of Palestine

January 12, 1947, Haifa. A single terrorist drove a truck filled with high explosives into the central police station and exploded it, killing two British policemen and two Arab constables and injuring 140 others. The terrorist escaped. This action ended a 10-day lull in the violence and the Stern gang took the credit for it.

March 30, 1947, Tel Aviv. The Stem gang killed the wife of a British soldier.

April 21, 1947, Jerusalem. Meir Feinstein and Moshe Barazani, condemned terrorists, killed themselves in prison a few hours before they were scheduled to be hanged. They blew themselves up with bombs smuggled to them in hollowed-out oranges.

April 25, 1947, Tel Aviv. A Stern gang squad drove a stolen post office truck loaded with explosives into the Sarona police compound and detonated it, killing five British policemen.

And it goes on....

I am an Israeli sympathizer, but attempting to picture them as innocent of terrorist acts (including suicide bombings) is ludicrous.

Why don't YOU ARM them, why ask someone else to do that? Or perhaps you are arming them with the scams and donations you garner with the freedoms you have but hate so much?

And how do you know of the freedoms in that part of the world? How do you know what sacrafices were made in Malaysia or even Asia in general. How can you so blithely say that the freedoms are given as easy as playing with a toy army?

I am not sure where you coming from here or what you intended to say either. I assume that the above in red was a response to above in blue yet, I have no idea where Asia and the merrily toy army commentary was derived?

If so, I have an answer to your obviously rhetorical query. In Palestine, the answer is obvious clear and unambiguous as you well know, freedom has never been a choice the authoritarian regimes nor the people who support them there, other than the Israelis, have ever attempted to make.

Next, this person, I was speaking of and to, does NOT live where you assume he lives. But he does enjoy the freedoms many in the world do not. Yet, likewise, he would deny anyone who is capable of helping others find that freedom, they so loudly, without the effort of sacrifice and choice, preferring the course of lest cost, clamor for. As they, like you, seek the easy road more traveled than the harder road more difficult and more deadly yet more rewarding instead.

Now that the door to a safe free world has been opened and they have rejected true freedom for all, like in Palestine, Iraq and Iran, they have no excuse to say they have never had an opportunity to obtain, by assistance, but without an inner will and choice the freedom they claim they want.

Second, I have spent 18 months in SE Asia in 68 and 69 in the worst of the worst of times among the worst behaviors humanity has to offer. Likewise, I have for last 29 years been going nearly every year to Asia, I so have a clue about what is and is not reality there, where freedom exists and were it does not.

Something that you oddly interjected into a totally different conversation about the Palestinians having an Army and arms. Third, the topic of arms was broached by the gentle lady about Palestinians, not Asians, so I have I have no idea why you assumed my response was about Asia and you needed to interject something about freedom and Asia into it?

at their history of the last 3000 years, it clearly shows they truely have the mark of Cain on them..

And there is no people that are born evil. They do not have a mark of Cain on them, they work and live and love just the same as any other people. Just because you do not understand their life does not mean you can eliminate them as a bad people. Just as they should not eliminate other that are different.Are you so blinded by your own hate that you would be no better than to have your own mark of Cain upon your soul?

My god, you, like your sister lefty up there, seem to think in this world there is but one tidal surge in but one direction when fact and reality prove how oblivious that assumption is.

You do seek the most obvious course of least resistance in this one sided utopian egalitarianism by thinking you have provided an epiphany of superior explanation to your point which was and is so absurdly obvious.

Which was, oddly, humans are not evil, ignoring the fact that it is what humans DO that IS, in my mark of Cain metaphor, Evil, and thus in that they by act and deed are mark by evil.

This is the far harder road of Reality you will not traverse, in this misdirection of topic and issue. The reality
of the every day, in every country, among all groups, does not prove your wrong that NO one is born evil nor does it equally counter weigh your argument of the obvious that humans have more in common than they do not. That, my lazy friend is the easiest of arguments to pursue as it has the least course of resistance in a universal truth that humans are not evil nor more different than alike, that is obvious, yet in act and deed many, enough to effct all others, have yet to come to evolve into human reality. Yet, you postulate this like providing a calculus equation with but ONLY one side of the elements required to solve it in real time, by real facts and real methods. You ignore the other of the equations that is needed showing it is the acts of man that are evil, not man innately, though I am uncertain you can not prove that among men there are not those born to be evil and prove it by their actions and deeds.

The hard road to disprove, when you dismount that utopian steed of supremacy, you so effortless straddle in this egalitarian non-reality you think is an epiphany. Is the reality where in fact and deed, evil things have, do and are always happening and by such, those that have done them, do them, and or will continue to do them, are evil, be it by birth or by choice, it does not matter.

It is act not the bred, that is the evil mark of Cain in this metaphoric reality you Gallup by without notice on your utopian steed in that non-reality stupor you exist in, it is the acts and deeds you surmise is but a one way tide in a one sided sea of non-reality that you miss all together.

Thus, these evil things being done is not an exclusive club on the narrow alley way of blame and shame you would travel, but is another universal truth whereby evil begets evil and in that is the far more common tide that ebbs and flows than this obscure reality you propose and epitomized as if it existed but does not.

The harder road which you prefer to avoid as to its impossibility, is why, if all is so well and evil is not bred and people do not deserve to be eliminated. Then why, do people commit daily such acts of evil and elimination in vast numbers of great evils upon one and the other in often as not, in efforts to do exact as you say they do not posses and or deserve, evil to eliminate those to whom they seek to do evil to.

History of the last 3,000 years in the Middle East especially but of thw world in general has proven time and time again, as Iraq is now proving, when it gets down to freedom, the evolution of tribal loyalty and the lust for revenge has not changed at all the evolution of that venue, other than the means to which it is carried out. That is the mark of Cain, not some spiritual mumbo jumbo, but the mantra of choice, where each choice has lead all there further from that Utopian egalitarianism you profess.

To assume I have no knowledge and or grasp of how people live through out the world is to assume that I live in that same intellectual vacuum that you presume only those enlightened like yourself actuate in this righteous understanding and comprehension. Then again, Snafu is a mantra of ideal is it not?

Indeed, a commentary of bold elitist supremacy to the nth extreme. Yet this use of this hyperbolic presumption ansd allegation to those of us here that anyone here wants to “eliminate” others’ Because they are different” is another giant FUBAR on your part.

Yet, we see that reality in death and terror all throughout the Middle East among Arabs and Non- western Arabs for decades and centuries. Why, if you utopian reality exist, does this happen in an elitist vacuum of oh so false reality?

Again, with another hyperbolic presumptive of supremacy labeled in true Liberal McCarthyism, “if accused, presumed guilty.”

The Mark of Cain metaphorically is seen by a person’s, a group’s, a nation’s, acts and deeds. They metaphorically, lay the mark of choice upon their destiny, their fate and the circumstances in which they find themselves. Perhaps, you assume God’s hand is in it all, I do not, I lay the burden of fate at the feet of those choices a person, a people, a group and or a nation makes individually and accumulatively which in the end determines what happens or does not happen to them.

In that regard, history has shown some merit in my rhetorical commentary as to the circumstances the people of the Middle East have found themselves vacillating in and out of in these last 3000 years. Much of which, if not the majority, included choices that have brought far more pain and suffering that would have been had they made different choices at differing times.

I would Include as well the one they will be making in the coming 2 to 5 years that will set their destiny to either a better less painful road than they now experience and or on another of even greater pain and suffering they sadly they now experience. It will be by choice and either a desire to seek the path of least resistance to avoid the hard reality that to be safe and free comes with a big price in human will, determination and sacrifice.

You have chosen the easy row you hoe using this theoretical reason and rationality of equality, humanity, compassion and egalitarianism as the water that floats your boat. Yet, you boats floats on sea that does not exist in vast majority of history and the world today.

Try dealing with the dirty reality of the world and evil vile things All humans do to one and the other,using for convienence not any one exclusive fashionable blame and shame group you would seek out in this easy road of liberal McCarthyism to fault in this ever present one side sea with a one way tide of evil.

The mark of Cain is a choice and in that choice is the consequences that marks destiny, be it good or evil, it is the mark of choice that decides fate.

Just trying to relate to your level of intellect.........

When was the last time a Christain practiced violence and killing in the name of their faith??? Aside from the head case Rudolph??



Thanks Sigmond Einstein. Fact is if someone is hell bent on killing you they need to be killed first. The motivation and twisted reason behind their passion matters not. You would have better luck reasoning with a rabid coyote. Kill or be killed. It's boiled down to that.


And finally @sswipe..............


And just where the Fk did I make this assertion?????
Are you really this naive........... Christianity has evolved and matured. Christianity has a central authority figure that guides the followers. Tell me when was the last incident Christians have done what you claim? Islam is nothing but a book left open to interpretations by those that read it. There is no central authority with Islam. The Koran has not been revised since it's inception. No evolution. No maturing. Killing the non believers is still the central focus of the Koran. Muslims still live in the dark ages and have not contributed anything towards the advancement of humanity. They have just leeched off the successes of others.

Nomad, I don't believe Adolf Hitler even pretended to be a Christian. George W. Bush claims to be a Christian. The Jews who did the acts listed above for 1946 and 1947 claimed to be good Jews, and were Zionist terrorists. The good American military men who dropped napalm bombs on innocent young Vietnamese often claimed to be Christians, and 30 years later one of them told me, "I loved to see the napalm fall down from my plane and explode" - like an echo from Apocalypse Now.

God placed a mark on Cain after Cain killed his brother. Cain became the father of the wicked Canaanites. I believe (not sure, though) that God placed the mark on Cain's face, to warn people not to kill Cain. Anyway, that story has been misused by bigots to kill enemies, in evil fashion.

Any religion that, in this age, teaches its followers to kill people, is evil and false.

Quite correct Fit. And the only religion "in this age" that does that is Islam.