Barbarians! Lowest form of humanity--not even civilized... She was just a child... And this is justified by their religion?? And they want to impose this behavior on the rest of the world? I think not!

Teenage Girl Stoned to Death

And this is a surprise to you Membrane? The libs that occasionally frequent this board take great umbrage when I call these entities "sub human animals". Yet even animals will not treat their young in this fashion. Hey but this is no big deal to the libs. They will just pretend this was a partial birth abortion, just 17 years after gestation.

That had nothing to do with Shari'a. The girl was hiding in an someone's tent (an elder, it seems), and was forcibly dragged out by an angry mob of idiots. There was no legal deliberation, here. While Shari'a is most certainly butchered and misapplied (e.g., Taliban, al-Qaeda), I don't think Shari'a law is responsible for this brutality. I think a bunch of idiots who use ancient modes of tribal justice to solve their problems just felt that stoning this girl was necessary to both cleanse their own tribe, and to get back at the Sunnis for corrupting their people and their tribe. It's probably got a lot to do with ethnic and religious animosities... thing with no analogue in the West... things we can't easily understand. We should also remember there are (seldom used) mechanisms in Shari'a law that provide for mercy in such cases, and a flogging is reduced to being whipped by the hem of a robe, or stoning is reduced to being the target of a single pebble... Shari'a is controversial, but it's not the issue, here; this is vigilante tribal justice, sick as it is.
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They must have read the old testament of the bible ..the method of execution for crimes such as murder, blasphemy and apostasy, and in some cases adultery was stoning. It's not like they invented it ( in fact I don't think it's a subscribed punishment in the Quran ).. I just can't believe it still happens in 2007.

This is a very accurate and insightful post. I am an American, who has lived in Islamic countries for many years - primarily as a contract engineer. This article is not an application of Shari'a law - it is tribal tradition dating back thousands of years. It can accurately be described as cruel and barbaric - and the perpetrators deserve to be punished - but you who read this post will never stop something similar happening in the future. The only action we have in the West which might be considered comparable is gang rape and murder, while ordinary people stand around without trying to help the girl. The American slums are the remaining vestiges of tribal life in the US.

Many places in the world are still uncivilized according to Western standards, as this example illustrates. However, it is important to look at the definition of the word "civilized". Maybe civilized means something as simple as not killing people. Then the US certainly fails the test because we kill more foreigners every year than any other country in the world. It makes no difference if an American bomb falls on an innocent young girl, or if she is stoned to death. The result is the same, only the methods are different. Yet, we in the West, consider our military actions around the world as being humane and civilized...in the best interest of our country and the world in general.

Of course, the people living in rural Iraq have a much different view of what is good for their village. Tribal rules are often based on the survival and sanctity of the family unit. A single family relies upon the help and assistance of the extended family. Many times the extended family can be thousands of people all living in close proximity to each other.

Simply put, the family's survival depends upon every member conforming to the rules. A young person who has a baby out of wedlock, tries to change religion, or violates even simple rules like not going out at night alone - is causing major problems for a family who is just trying to survive. Conformity to the rules of the tribe (or extended family) is fundamental for the safety of everyone. There is simply no room for a young person who decides to break with tradition. Among animals, it is quite common to push aside a deformed young offspring so that the rest of the litter will have a better chance to survive.

You who live and promote the concept that Western culture is best for everyone in the world need to travel to countries in the third world just for a reality check. You need to see how your reality is so very different than perhaps 60% of the world whose primary concern is to find sufficient food to stay alive for another day.

Hobo

I notice you like definitions as evidenced by at least one other post, so I provided one.

Here is the definition of "civilization" 1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. I suggest your proposed definition ("not killing others")is not a sufficient one, but it does give you an excellent diving board for the rest of your post based loosely upon your own definition.

But, overall, I agree with your post.....just find fault with your logic in using this definition of civilization as your premise.

Perhaps, this tribe isn't civilized? Was that your point? And, that civilized people shouldn't try to put civilized judgments upon uncivilized people?

Perhaps, it would just be sufficient to call this action just flat cruel and inhumane, regardless of the system of laws, development of sciences, and the use of record-keeping? Which I do........call it cruel and inhumane, regardless of their system.

I guess that's the reason for hoping to "civilize" the majority of people.........so that children won't be abused/murdered/exploited?

Pretty impressive, Hobo... I really find it fascinating how you found a way to both slander the USA, and at the same time found a way to dismiss this atrocity as "well, they gotta eat"...

Absolutely spot on, Lonesome Dove is semi-correct from a narrowly construed MONOPODIAL point of view of humanity, using a narrowed lenses of a microscope that leeches out some of the extremely important context as to this incidence that both was not directly yet absolutely directly about Shari'a law and its believers.

He leeches out correctly, yet in the usual half-truth, that in reality, it was not about any specific Shari’s law or it per se that caused the death of this girl.

Leaving out I am sure in absent mindedness, its greater context that IT WAS about those that believe in it and who now and in the centuries gone by, have used it against non-believers, like and specifically this Tribe of Pre-Islamic Yezidi.

It turns out that it was about the belivers of Shari’a Law, those so called defended believers, who merely two to three weeks ago, to took off a bus, 23 men, women and children of this same Yezidi tribe, shooting them down in the road with their hands tied behind their back, praising Allah, as they did it.

That of course was not contextually relevant nor was the misfortunate ill fated opportunity that this girl, sadly a victim of a very dominate trait among those in the Middle East, who often seek “honor killings and revenge killings” if the family and or tribe is seen rightly or wrongly to be dishonored and or attacked by outsiders.

Thus, in context the brutal savage genocide and killing of those 23 of this tribe, by Arab Muslims, complicated in ill fated linkage to this girls conversion to Islam, whose core is all about Shari’a Law does have some unconscionable linkage and relevance to this girls death.

Yet,again unsaid as it would be an inconvienent truth, from those that interpret Shari’a Law, rightly or wrongly, wouldcome, have come and do come equally an use of that law to justify killing a Muslim convert to another religion especially in the rural areas of the Middle East.

Making it far more directly all about the believers and how they use the Shari’a law that you cocktail in an out of context reality, as does your “he-ll yes, can I hear a Hallalooya, brother, of concurrence, this worldly lecturer, as if exclusively so.

I guess my main point, in a nutshell, is that much of the world is still not civilized in any meaning of the word. We should condemn their inhumane actions - that is the prerogative and responsibility of first world nations. However, to simply condemn and label them sub-human without understanding their culture, is unfair. They were born into a culture and society where the survival depends upon adherence to the rules of that society. We don't have all the facts, but apparently girl and boy were probably from different tribes - their religions were different, and she spent the night away from home. I have personally seen similar situations where the result was a three day war between two villages with dozens of people killed.

To us, the whole incident seems totally out of time and place in the 21st century. Likewise, it is difficult for us to understand how such things as the Salem witch trials or the keeping of slaves could possible be a part of our nation's history. But these kind of atrocities not only happened in our own country, but they were condoned in 18th and 19th century America. We must remember that much of the world still has not advanced any further than our early American settlers.

We can (and should) lament that the fact that children are being abused. However, if we Americans ever hope to improve the world condition, then we must first take the time to learn and understand more about the people we wish to help. Only then can we learn how to effectively work within the system of these third world countries and eventually effect change.

How, then, to effectively work within the system of these third world countries? I would assume condemning the inhumane tx would be a first step, regardless of the understanding of the genesis of this type of belief?

I fully understand the concept that polygamists have toward multiple wives, and underage marriages to child brides (legalized rape/pedophia) while running off eligible young men who might be of greater interest to these young brides, but IMO to change that milieu most effectively would be with stiff penalties ( severe form of condemnation of the act) to create some respect (grudging though it may be) and the desire to change.

My God! I hate that humans emulate animals who drive out young males to cut down the competition for young females in estrus. It's sickening, but that's what it is.

Nice try @sswipe. When was the last time Christains stoned anyone?? Christianity has evolved. These sand parasites have not. Your feeble attempt at justifing the actions of these sub human pigs based on the prevailing pre Christ societal norms is an abomination in and of itself.

You did not condemn this horror. As has no one else in the Islamic community. You excuse it. And in doing so you justify it. You are no more a human than the the animals that perpretated this atrocity.

You disgust me.

And again, no condemnation for this horror. Only more justificaton as to why it occured................

Stoning is part of the law during Biblical times. When someone commits murder, blasphemy and apostasy, and in some cases adultery - you are subject to get rocks thrown at you....dummy!!

Besides comic books....do you ever read a Bible? doofus!!

This statement, alone (especially what I've highlighted in bold) just shows me and the rest of us that you have no clue what you are talking about concerning the Middle East.
In Iraq, as well as most other Muslim countries, rules are based on what the Sheik says. His word is final law for each and every tribe. It is the Sheik who chooses the Mayor and the other political leaders in his tribe.

The term Sheik only refers to Arab leaders - usually a family title that indicates they are or the royal family. I should note that your are talking about only a minority of Muslims. The Kurds, about whom we are speaking, are not Muslim, and do not have Sheiks. In a few cases these people do specialize in Muslim law or the teachings and interpretations of the Koran. However, religious leaders usually are referred to by the term Imam or Caliph.

Quite honestly, KenRI, it is clear you have preconceived notions about the social structure of the Muslim world, and I am not going to change your mind. So I will not waste my time.

That is an excellent question. It certainly seems the future of the US is going to be heavily involved working with third world countries. We had better develop a program for interacting with these countries that can be effective...using a strong-hand military option clearly has not produced the desired results in Iraq.

I read an article today entitled, "Do not neglect culture" http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/opinion/edazimi.php Here is a small portion:



This is the area where we fell down in Iraq. If America is going to try to solve international problems of any dimensions, then first our leaders must listen long and carefully to their advisers to learn how a third world country thinks and reasons. What is the true line of governance? Who, among their leaders can we talk to and make a difference. But most of all, we must approach a third world country as an equal. They should not look at us like a unlimited source of funds...and we should not look at them like they are intellectually inferior. Plus, once you kill someone, the job become much more difficult if not impossible. It is often necessary to spend the endless hours of small talk to gain the trust and friendship. This kind of long, drawn out discussion (and coffee drinking) is generally counter to the American style of doing business. If we hope to make real progress in befriending third world countries, we must know their cultures and take the time to accommodate it. Basically, we must try to work within their system with the expectation that everyone will benefit.

Translation: I cannot argue with facts, so I give up. Typical copout.

Now about your comments concerning our leaders don't know anything.
Gen Petreaus has a PhD in International Relations and a Masters in Middle Eastern Studies. He also wrote the COIN manual. Are you even slightly familiar with how COIN works?
Gen. Caldwall has a PhD in World History as well as one in International Relations..both from Harvard
Here are Col (Ret.) Lang's credentials

Her also wrote a paper called "How to work with tribesman" available HERE

So don't give me this GARBAGE that our leaders do not know what they are doing or do not know how to handle foreign populations.

By the way, HOBO, what degrees do you have in Middle Eastern Studies or International Affairs? I'm taking a few classes now and am on my way to a BA.

What do you do for a vocation/advocation, Hobo, that persuades you to comment as you do? Where do you live? Where do you get your information?

Let me correct you: Stoning WAS a part of the law during Biblical times. It's no longer in practice, as neither is rolling sins forward by the use of a blood sacrifice, condemnation of mixing materials such as wool/linen, etc. I believe this was pointed out in an earlier reply to you. ??

Therefore, your point about this act being related to the Bible is moot, obsolete, of no practical value for the discussion at hand.


I can agree with this, but am not aware that this being overlooked during the trips by our administration over there.

In the meantime, the clock is ticking concerning the terrorists. Do we drink coffee with their important people while the terrorists plant their bombs? Or, are you just addressing the stoning of this girl?

Suggestions?

Sigh.............. Are you really this illiterate?(Public schooled no doubt) Put down the bong and go back and reread my post.


And when are YOU going to condemn the stoning death of this girl. Or are you going to continue justifying it??

I have lived a total of 15 years in the Muslim world, as a contract engineer working on the basic environmental issues (providing clean water facilities, etc). I was stationed as a Naval Office in Bahrain for 3 years in 1970 when that country was still semi-primitive and the US troop presence was about 20 people. Later I worked in Iran while the Shah was in power. For the past 7 I have been working on a rural island in Indonesia. I never live in the "American compounds" or even in the places where Westerners are concentrated. I make it a point to live in close proximity to the villages where the native population lives. By chance, most of the areas I have worked are primarily Islamic.

I always make an effort to become conversational in the local country language and make myself as much part of the local culture as possible. Much of the political conversation occurs at night when men gather to express their thoughts. Plus, when something traumatic happens - such as the beheading of someone who violates tribal law - it is kind of hard not to hear all the news and gossip. I have found that most people living in third world countries are much more open to meeting outsiders and quick to offer their hospitality. (Conversely, a stranger will likely stay a stranger in the US for a long time - friends are made at work.)

And so I have observed alternative lifestyles over the years. It is natural for me to compare their lifestyle with the American lifestyle. A long time ago I came to the conclusion that different societies can never be judged as categorically good or bad. All societies are different, and all societies have their share of good people and bad people - both in and out of leadership positions. Cultural differences often clash - as seems to be the current situation now with Muslims and Americans. Most often I find these cultural clashes are promoted and magnified by 1)political manipulation by the leaders, 2)journalists who are looking for a story that sells to their readers, or 3) because one culture has a complete lack of knowledge of the other cultures.

I'll stop there...I hope that answers your question.

Riiiight, nothing to do with Shariah law. Its just a freak coincidence that stoning to death of women only occurs in countries that to some extent apply shariah as law. (sarcasm). There are none so blind as those who will not see. MARK

In Muslim countries, as in Western countries, there are cultural traditions related to a crime. When a wife commits adultery in a Western country, the violent husband would likely respond by some form of physical abuse...hitting, etc. However, if a thief enters the house, the violent husband would respond by shooting a gun - assuming he had one. If a crazed madman shoots your wife, the husband likely calls the police.

The same cultural "norms" apply here. This was a case of presumed adultery...and the tribe reacted by throwing stones. If it were a thief, either a hand or foot would be cut off. A murderer would be executed by having his head sliced off with a knife - as we have seen in pictures.

None of this is fun stuff to talk about. Sharia law is a system whereby the victim faces a tribunal of religious leaders. In all crimes there is a standard of proof that must be met. If the victim is found guilty, they face a punishment. If the crime warrants "stoning", then, Sharia law has a set procedure. The guilty person is buried up to the neck, and then a set number of stones are thrown over a set length of time. In the rare instance where the person survives, then Allah has caused the stones to be diverted...and under Sharia Law that person must be set free.

Kind of like a prisoner surviving the shock of an electric chair is set free...all of life has its hidden justices.

None are so cursed as someone who looks but cannot understand what he sees.

And yet still, you believe this Iraqi girls death "had nothing to do with Shari'a"????? Have you actually convinced yourself that this is some vestige of pre Islamic tribal culture ONLY and its continuation up to the present has nothing to do with the Islamic doctrine that endorses it???? You are in a state of denial dude.
Thats like arguing that the American celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with Christianity, but is instead some cultural pagan ritual. MARK

It seems you apply the same moral relativism to conclude that we cant judge the stoning to death of a young girl as "categorically BAD". I have no problem whatsoever passing such judgements. MARK

Mark, have you ever heard the term, "Law of the Wild West", where the town throws a rope over the nearest tree, and hangs a robber/murderer? Well, if you are willing to call the Law of the West the same thing as the American Justice System, then you may call this action Sharia