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Nomad
This is to much. The Russians under Pukin have poisoned their political opponents, have shut off vital fuel supplies in the dead of winter to those that disagree with and now are waging a cyber war against Estonia..

QUOTE
Russia accused of unleashing cyberwar to disable Estonia


· Parliament, ministries, banks, media targeted
· Nato experts sent in to strengthen defences

Ian Traynor in Brussels
Thursday May 17, 2007
The Guardian


Bronze Soldier, the Soviet war memorial removed from Tallinn. Photograph: Timur Nisametdinov/AP

A three-week wave of massive cyber-attacks on the small Baltic country of Estonia, the first known incidence of such an assault on a state, is causing alarm across the western alliance, with Nato urgently examining the offensive and its implications.
While Russia and Estonia are embroiled in their worst dispute since the collapse of the Soviet Union, a row that erupted at the end of last month over the Estonians' removal of the Bronze Soldier Soviet war memorial in central Tallinn, the country has been subjected to a barrage of cyber warfare, disabling the websites of government ministries, political parties, newspapers, banks, and companies.

Nato has dispatched some of its top cyber-terrorism experts to Tallinn to investigate and to help the Estonians beef up their electronic defences.
"This is an operational security issue, something we're taking very seriously," said an official at Nato headquarters in Brussels. "It goes to the heart of the alliance's modus operandi."

Alarm over the unprecedented scale of cyber-warfare is to be raised tomorrow at a summit between Russian and European leaders outside Samara on the Volga.

While planning to raise the issue with the Russian authorities, EU and Nato officials have been careful not to accuse the Russians directly.

If it were established that Russia is behind the attacks, it would be the first known case of one state targeting another by cyber-warfare.

Relations between the Kremlin and the west are at their worst for years, with Russia engaged in bitter disputes not only with Estonia, but with Poland, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, and Georgia - all former parts of the Soviet Union or ex-members of the Warsaw Pact. The electronic offensive is making matters much worse.

"Frankly it is clear that what happened in Estonia in the cyber-attacks is not acceptable and a very serious disturbance," said a senior EU official.

Estonia's president, foreign minister, and defence minister have all raised the emergency with their counterparts in Europe and with Nato.

"At present, Nato does not define cyber-attacks as a clear military action. This means that the provisions of Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, or, in other words collective self-defence, will not automatically be extended to the attacked country," said the Estonian defence minister, Jaak Aaviksoo.

"Not a single Nato defence minister would define a cyber-attack as a clear military action at present. However, this matter needs to be resolved in the near future."

Estonia, a country of 1.4 million people, including a large ethnic Russian minority, is one of the most wired societies in Europe and a pioneer in the development of "e-government". Being highly dependent on computers, it is also highly vulnerable to cyber-attack.

The main targets have been the websites of:

· the Estonian presidency and its parliament

· almost all of the country's government ministries

· political parties

· three of the country's six big news organisations

· two of the biggest banks; and firms specializing in communications

It is not clear how great the damage has been.

With their reputation for electronic prowess, the Estonians have been quick to marshal their defences, mainly by closing down the sites under attack to foreign internet addresses, in order to try to keep them accessible to domestic users.

The cyber-attacks were clearly prompted by the Estonians' relocation of the Soviet second world war memorial on April 27.

Ethnic Russians staged protests against the removal, during which 1,300 people were arrested, 100 people were injured, and one person was killed.

The crisis unleashed a wave of so-called DDoS, or Distributed Denial of Service, attacks, where websites are suddenly swamped by tens of thousands of visits, jamming and disabling them by overcrowding the bandwidths for the servers running the sites. The attacks have been pouring in from all over the world, but Estonian officials and computer security experts say that, particularly in the early phase, some attackers were identified by their internet addresses - many of which were Russian, and some of which were from Russian state institutions.

"The cyber-attacks are from Russia. There is no question. It's political," said Merit Kopli, editor of Postimees, one of the two main newspapers in Estonia, whose website has been targeted and has been inaccessible to international visitors for a week. It was still unavailable last night.

"If you are implying [the attacks] came from Russia or the Russian government, it's a serious allegation that has to be substantiated. Cyber-space is everywhere," Russia's ambassador in Brussels, Vladimir Chizhov, said in reply to a question from the Guardian. He added: "I don't support such behaviour, but one has to look at where they [the attacks] came from and why."

Without naming Russia, the Nato official said: "I won't point fingers. But these were not things done by a few individuals.

"This clearly bore the hallmarks of something concerted. The Estonians are not alone with this problem. It really is a serious issue for the alliance as a whole."

Mr Chizhov went on to accuse the EU of hypocrisy in its support for Estonia, an EU and Nato member. "There is a smell of double standards."

He also accused Poland of holding the EU hostage in its dealings with Russia, and further accused Estonia and other east European countries previously in Russia's orbit of being in thrall to "phantom pains of the past, historic grievances against the Soviet union and the Russian empire of the 19th century." In Tallinn, Ms Kopli said: "This is the first time this has happened, and it is very important that we've had this type of attack. We've been able to learn from it."

"We have been lucky to survive this," said Mikko Maddis, Estonia's defence ministry spokesman. "People started to fight a cyber-war against it right away. Ways were found to eliminate the attacker."

The attacks have come in three waves: from April 27, when the Bronze Soldier riots erupted, peaking around May 3; then on May 8 and 9 - a couple of the most celebrated dates in the Russian calendar, when the country marks Victory Day over Nazi Germany, and when President Vladimir Putin delivered another hostile speech attacking Estonia and indirectly likening the Bush administration to the Hitler regime; and again this week.

Estonian officials say that one of the masterminds of the cyber-campaign, identified from his online name, is connected to the Russian security service. A 19-year-old was arrested in Tallinn at the weekend for his alleged involvement.

Expert opinion is divided on whether the identity of the cyber-warriors can be ascertained properly.

Experts from Nato member states and from the alliance's NCSA unit - "Nato's first line of defence against cyber-terrorism", set up five years ago - were meeting in Seattle in the US when the crisis erupted. A couple of them were rushed to Tallinn.

Another Nato official familiar with the experts' work said it was easy for them, with other organisations and internet providers, to track, trace, and identify the attackers.

But Mikko Hyppoenen, a Finnish expert, told the Helsingin Sanomat newspaper that it would be difficult to prove the Russian state's responsibility, and that the Kremlin could inflict much more serious cyber-damage if it chose to.


Link

These Russians are so damned stupid. Except for some dumb @ss Finnish jerk does anyone doubt who is responsible for this?? Looks like the new cold war has begun with these ignorant cossacks. Not a problem, their nukes won't fire and their conventional forces are a shambles. That's why the Rasputin treatments and the economic sabotage. Dumb sh!ts.
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Sheriff.
Thanks, Nomad, I didn't expect this from you...

If Russians are so stupid how can they do cyber attacks?

Europe protects the followers of Hitler, Estonians (not all of course) created division SS, allowed fascists' marches in Talinn, 30% of its people are not citizens of their country, shall I continue? Though thanks God there are still good people but they are in minority.

Why do they fight with dead Russian soldiers? They tie it with communism, but soldiers were just simple peasants and they were far from communism and politics at all.

And why did Estonia start to fight with Soviet Union in 2005?
Nomad
QUOTE (Sheriff. @ May 17 2007, 05:53 AM) *
Thanks, Nomad, I didn't expect this from you...

If Russians are so stupid how can they do cyber attacks?

Europe protects the followers of Hitler, Estonians (not all of course) created division SS, allowed fascists' marches in Talinn, 30% of its people are not citizens of their country, shall I continue? Though thanks God there are still good people but they are in minority.

Why do they fight with dead Russian soldiers? They tie it with communism, but soldiers were just simple peasants and they were far from communism and politics at all.

And why did Estonia start to fight with Soviet Union in 2005?

Sheriff, I respect you for the individual that you are. However I do not trust Pukins government. Forget history. How can a sliver of land on the Baltic possibly be any threat to Russia today?? Please enlighten us as to how Estonia started this fight in 2005...........
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Sheriff.
QUOTE
Forget history. How can a sliver of land on the Baltic possibly be any threat to Russia today??


Nobody in Russia considers Baltic as a threat, we are just pained why these gravediggers exhumated 13 soldiers and transferred memorial of people who gave their own lives for lives of Baltic people. Europe is not going to support the graves of those people who saved her from fascism. If you talk to Russian veterans, they spitted on Stalin and politburo they did what they had to do. How Estonians can’t understand that the memorial wasn’t put in honor of communism but in honor of those whom we can only remember.

QUOTE
Please enlighten us as to how Estonia started this fight in 2005


2004-2005 were years when their government started to accuse Soviet Union in occupation regularly.

And there was a popular anecdote. BTW, Estonians are famous of their slow-thinking in Russia.

2005 year Estonia at last started to fight with soviet occupation.

It’s not difficult to understand.
Hobo
QUOTE (Nomad @ May 18 2007, 06:00 AM) *
Sheriff, I respect you for the individual that you are. However I do not trust Pukins government. Forget history. How can a sliver of land on the Baltic possibly be any threat to Russia today?? Please enlighten us as to how Estonia started this fight in 2005...........


That begs the question how can a desert country along the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers possibly be any threat to the US today. And for that matter, how does Russia and Putin in any way threaten the US today? You ask a good question: Why does the US really care what is happening halfway around the world, especially when you consider the chances of any American citizen being attacked by an Iraqi or Russian is far less than your chances of getting struck by lightning?
Nomad
QUOTE (Hobo @ May 19 2007, 10:19 AM) *
That begs the question how can a desert country along the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers possibly be any threat to the US today. And for that matter, how does Russia and Putin in any way threaten the US today? You ask a good question: Why does the US really care what is happening halfway around the world, especially when you consider the chances of any American citizen being attacked by an Iraqi or Russian is far less than your chances of getting struck by lightning?

I really tire of this ignorant sh!t. I suppose you would have been the first to say on 9/10/2001 how could some goat fcking muslim pig living in the caves and deserts halfway around the world be able to attack any American citizen. But since you are not a true American the carnage of 911 does not bother you. Perhaps you even silently rejoice in it as many on the left do. Your sig is a lie. You are no more an American than are the gutter Muslim pigs you stand so ready to excuse and defend. Give up the facade and debate like a man. 037.gif 037.gif 037.gif 037.gif 037.gif 037.gif 037.gif
Nomad
QUOTE (Sheriff. @ May 19 2007, 01:36 AM) *
Nobody in Russia considers Baltic as a threat, we are just pained why these gravediggers exhumated 13 soldiers and transferred memorial of people who gave their own lives for lives of Baltic people. Europe is not going to support the graves of those people who saved her from fascism. If you talk to Russian veterans, they spitted on Stalin and politburo they did what they had to do. How Estonians can’t understand that the memorial wasn’t put in honor of communism but in honor of those whom we can only remember.

It’s not difficult to understand.

Quite a different perspectve here.............
QUOTE
For ethnic Estonians, however, the statue symbolises the horrors of nearly 50 years of Soviet occupation.
"In our minds, this soldier stands for deportations and murders, the destruction of our country, not liberation," said Toomas Hendrik Ilves, the Estonian President. "It is a monument to mass murder."

Link

Sorry Sheriff, saving people from fascism only to impose communism upon them does not merit celebration. The statue was on their soil and it was a reminder of the brutal years they were shakled with the yoke of communism. Frankly I am suprised it took so long to remove it and even more surprised that with your protest you do not fully recognize Estonia as a free and independent country. You Russians still have a cold war mentality. You lost that war and your empire to the forces of freedom. Russia is now squandering the opportunity that was presented her with the dismantling of the USSR. Demented Putin is hell bent on centralizing power and squashing democracy in Russia. And since you people are more worried about some dumb @ss statue in a sovereign nation your stupid foolish pride cannot let you see how your new found liberties being taken away from you one by one. It won't be long, Sheriff, before your hero Putin starts blocking your internet access. Good luck my friend......................... 006.gif 006.gif 006.gif

More bad news for Russian democrcy here....Link
FascistCanuck
QUOTE (Nomad @ May 16 2007, 10:23 PM) *
This is to much. The Russians under Pukin have poisoned their political opponents, have shut off vital fuel supplies in the dead of winter to those that disagree with and now are waging a cyber war against Estonia..



Link

These Russians are so damned stupid. Except for some dumb @ss Finnish jerk does anyone doubt who is responsible for this?? Looks like the new cold war has begun with these ignorant cossacks. Not a problem, their nukes won't fire and their conventional forces are a shambles. That's why the Rasputin treatments and the economic sabotage. Dumb sh!ts.
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Dumb shits? It worked didn't it? Quite the little moron aren't you?


QUOTE (Nomad @ May 19 2007, 10:24 PM) *
Quite a different perspectve here.............

Link

Sorry Sheriff, saving people from fascism only to impose communism upon them does not merit celebration. The statue was on their soil and it was a reminder of the brutal years they were shakled with the yoke of communism. Frankly I am suprised it took so long to remove it and even more surprised that with your protest you do not fully recognize Estonia as a free and independent country. You Russians still have a cold war mentality. You lost that war and your empire to the forces of freedom. Russia is now squandering the opportunity that was presented her with the dismantling of the USSR. Demented Putin is hell bent on centralizing power and squashing democracy in Russia. And since you people are more worried about some dumb @ss statue in a sovereign nation your stupid foolish pride cannot let you see how your new found liberties being taken away from you one by one. It won't be long, Sheriff, before your hero Putin starts blocking your internet access. Good luck my friend......................... 006.gif 006.gif 006.gif

More bad news for Russian democrcy here....Link


Never say anything against my beloved fascism you piece-of-######.

The Soviets never 'lost' the Cold War you dumbass. Their empire imploded due to poor economic planning, further proof that communism is a joke.
Sheriff.
QUOTE
For ethnic Estonians, however, the statue symbolises the horrors of nearly 50 years of Soviet occupation.
"In our minds, this soldier stands for deportations and murders, the destruction of our country, not liberation," said Toomas Hendrik Ilves, the Estonian President. "It is a monument to mass murder."


It seems I wrote my previous post with no purpose. Notice that Estonian defense minister who criticizes all soviet/Russian was soviet general (Werewolves). All they have today is soviet’s heritage (factories, power stations…). Think objectively, Nomad.

QUOTE
Frankly I am suprised it took so long to remove it and even more surprised that with your protest you do not fully recognize Estonia as a free and independent country.


Another example:
The memorial of soviet warrior now stands in Austrian’s capital which wasn’t “occupied”. And its citizens are grateful for his heroism. There is no politics at this question. BTW, Estonians disturbed Geneva convention of 1949 according to which dead bodies can’t be dug without relatives’ permission.

QUOTE
You Russians still have a cold war mentality.


I don’t see any connection with cold war here. And who always sees threat in Russia?

QUOTE
You lost that war and your empire to the forces of freedom.


Communists lost that war… but not me

QUOTE
And since you people are more worried about some dumb @ss statue in a sovereign nation your stupid foolish pride cannot let you see how your new found liberties being taken away from you one by one.

I consider your words as personal offence. And I have my liberties with me, you watch too much Fox News

QUOTE
It won't be long, Sheriff, before your hero Putin starts blocking your internet access. Good luck my friend.........................


This joke will take the 1st place in my hit parade of jokes…
Nomad
QUOTE
I consider your words as personal offence. And I have my liberties with me, you watch too much Fox News

No you do not watch enough Fox news. And if you mistakenly think you have free speech simply put up a website detailing all of Pukins corruptive misdeeds and murders and notify the Kremlin of that website. And then see how much liberty you have. You see, you do not know what true liberty is. As a former subject of a brutally communist regime any freedoms gained since 1993 would seem to you as absolute freedom. It is not. You came out of a black & white era and are now enjoying a couple of colors. You have yet to see the full rainbow of freedom. Here in the US we can criticize our government officials without any fear of retribution. YOU CANNOT.
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QUOTE (FascistCanuck @ May 21 2007, 05:50 AM) *
Dumb shits? It worked didn't it? Quite the little moron aren't you?
Never say anything against my beloved fascism you piece-of-######.

The Soviets never 'lost' the Cold War you dumbass. Their empire imploded due to poor economic planning, further proof that communism is a joke.

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Sheriff.
QUOTE
No you do not watch enough Fox news. And if you mistakenly think you have free speech simply put up a website detailing all of Pukins corruptive misdeeds and murders and notify the Kremlin of that website. And then see how much liberty you have.


Sorry, Nomad but I dunno Kremlin’s mobile number.

QUOTE
You see, you do not know what true liberty is.


No, I don’t see. And Nomad if you think that we, Russians, are barbarian Neanderthals who have never seen freedom or liberty, you are mistaken. We do what we want but obeying Christian and Russian Federation’s laws.

QUOTE
Here in the US we can criticize our government officials without any fear of retribution. YOU CANNOT.


If you knew Russian language I would advise you to visit Russian politic forums and you would see that you had been wrong, many people criticize Russian politics but they are alive and healthy.

There is no point for me to criticize him as I prefer living in stabile state.

QUOTE
As a former subject of a brutally communist regime any freedoms gained since 1993 would seem to you as absolute freedom. It is not. You came out of a black & white era and are now enjoying a couple of colors. You have yet to see the full rainbow of freedom.


It’s a pity that you don’t understand something. The difference between us lays since 11th century since two churches had divided. For you freedom is something you can touch, materialized one; for us it’s condition of our souls.
Nomad
QUOTE
It’s a pity that you don’t understand something. The difference between us lays since 11th century since two churches had divided. For you freedom is something you can touch, materialized one; for us it’s condition of our souls.
Of course I understand Sheriff.. For you absolute freedom will only come in the afterlife. This is the best you can hope for. For me freedom is material in the here and now. And since we exist in the here and now this is the only type of freedom relevent to our existance.

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