QUOTE (Razin @ Feb 25 2008, 07:11 AM)
this phrase is mentioned as the last part of
Charlie Wilson's own quote, in the end of movie.
or more precisely:
“These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world …
… and then we ######ed up the end game” - Charles Nesbitt “Charlie” Wilson
whatever it means?
mujahideen were supported by US and nourished:
The mujahideen were significantly financed and armed (and are alleged to have been trained) by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the Carter and Reagan administrations and the governments of Saudi Arabia, the People's Republic of China, several European countries, Iran, and Zia-ul-Haq's military regime in Pakistan. The Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) was the interagent used in the majority of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance.
Ronald Reagan praised them as "freedom fighters", and three mainstream films, 1987 The Living Daylights, 1988 Rambo III and 2007 Charlie Wilson's War, portrayed them as heroic.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideenand some even say - Taliban:
Though there is no evidence that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#OriginAmerican funding started with 20-30 million dollars per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million a year in 1987
The U.S. says all of its funds went to native Afghan rebels and denies that any of its funds were used to supply Osama bin Laden or foreign Arab mujahideen. It is estimated that 35,000 foreign Muslims from 43 Islamic countries participated in the war.
Sale of non-US arms to Pakistan for destination to Afghanistan was facilitated by Israel.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone(see all the related references in the end of article !)
interesting read is here also:
http://www.theseminal.com/2007/12/30/sunda...ie-wilsons-war/American interventionism in Afghanistan, as the film suggests at the end, did not liberate Afghanistan - rather, the chronic violence which resulted from superpower adventuring has continued to the present time, and fueled the growth of movements like the Taliban.but for me it is interesting another side(s) of the story: that US triumphed in victory over "evil Soviet Emptire", and the atrocities by Soviets shown in movie towards Afgani people.
however now, merely 10 years later, USA are facing no less mess, even though this time there is no Cold War and enemy superpower doing covert-up interventionist support for Talibans or whoever US are still fighting in there. and US is not alone there - there are its NATO allies. and yet - Afgans resist them as fiercely as Soviets.
also, a lot of civilians die :
at least 3,700 and probably closer to 5,000 civilians were killed as a result of U.S. bombing.
Civilian casualties in Afgan war
so, I think what Charlie Wilson said - is rather coming true NOW, comparing to those times because already 7 years (since 2001) USA can't achieve success in this war. and this "endgame ######-up" continues big time !
After the Russian Revolution, as early as 1919, the Soviet government gave Afghanistan aid in the form of a million gold rubles, small arms, ammunition, and a few aircraft to support the Afghan resistance to the British. In 1924, the USSR again gave military aid to Afghanistan. It received small arms, aircraft and Red Army military training in the Soviet Union for Afghan Army officers. Soviet-Afghan military cooperation began on a regular basis in 1956, when both countries signed another agreement. The Soviet Minister of Defense was now responsible for training all Afghan military officers.
In 1972, up to 100 Soviet military consultants and technical specialists were sent on detached duty to Afghanistan to train the Afghan armed forces. In May 1978, the governments signed another international agreement, sending up to 400 Soviet military advisors to Afghanistan. In December 1978, Moscow and Kabul signed a bilateral treaty of friendship and cooperation that permitted Soviet deployment in case of an Afghan request. Soviet military assistance increased and the PDPA regime became increasingly dependent on Soviet military equipment and advisors.
Under Soviet excellence in training and winning hearts and minds Soviet instituted puppets in Afghanistan were as super at the effort of hearts and minds exploxed as future Sovirt efforts would be.
In June of 1975, an estimated
20,000 prisoners were trucked into Pul-e-Charkhi prison outside of Kabul and from there to a 'firing range' for
summary execution. Between April 1978 and the Soviet invasion of December 1979, an estimated
27,000 political prisoners were executed, including many village mullahs and headmen. Other members of the traditional elite, the religious establishment and intelligentsia fled the country.
By the spring of 1979, 24 of the 28 provinces had suffered outbreaks of violence.
The rebellion began to take hold in the cities: in March 1979 in Herat Afghan soldiers led by Ismail Khan mutinied and massacred approximately 100 Soviet advisors. The PDPA and Soviet Union retaliated by a bombing campaign that killed 24,000 inhabitants of the city.[16] Despite these drastic measures, by the end of 1980, out of the 90,000 soldiers strong Afghan Army, more than half had either deserted or joined the rebels.
Truth is, the US tricked the soviets who were always prone to reacting in counter wieghted response to US efforts anywhere in the world into invading Afghanistan.Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated "According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise." Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting U.S. policy, which, unbeknownst even to the Mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled:
We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap...The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War. Boy was that true and it was not 12,000 miles from the homeland to boot.The Soviet invasion force rose with the arrival of the two later divisions to over 100,000.
As usual in half the truth, we are propgandized as if the US was the sole interolper assistjng against Soviet Invasion and agression. The truth is far more comprehensive.
The United States, the United Kingdom and Saudi Arabia became major financial contributors, the United States donating "$600 million in aid per year, with a matching amount coming from the Gulf states." The People's Republic of China also sold Type 56 (AKM) assault rifles and Type 69 RPGs to Mujahideen in co-operation with the CIA, as did Egypt with assault rifles. Of particular significance was the donation of American-made FIM-92 Stinger anti-aircraft missile systems, which increased aircraft losses of the Soviet Air Force.
Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and Special Service Group (SSG) were actively involved in the conflict, and in cooperation with the CIA and the United States Army Special Forces, as well as the British Special Air Service, supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets.
However no US or British personnel were ever deployed inside Afghanistan itself, there being "a cardinal rule of Pakistan's policy that no Americans ever become involved with the distribution of funds or arms once they arrived in the country.
No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen, and no authorized American official ever went inside Afghanistan," according to Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf, who ran ISI's Afghan operation between 1983 and 1987.
Between December 25, 1979 and February 15, 1989 a total of 620,000 soldiers served with the forces in Afghanistan (though there were only 80,000-104,000 force at one time ), 525,000 in the Army, 90,000 with border troops and other KGB sub-units, 5,000 in independent formations of MVD Internal Troops and police.
Over 1 million Afghans were killed.[50] 5 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, one out of two refugees in the world was an Afghan.
Along with fatalities were 1.2 million Afghans disabled—both Mujahideen and noncombatants—and 3 million maimed or wounded—primarily noncombatants. Now that compares well hey Razin?
How abouit Cechnya,
First Chechen War
The war was disastrous for both sides. Conservative casualty estimates give figures of 7,500 Russian military dead, 4,000 Chechen combatants dead, and no fewer than 35,000 civilian deaths—a minimum total of 46,500 dead. Others have cited figures in the range 80,000 to 100,000.[4]
Second Chechen War
Military losses
Casualties of the Second Chechen War
Military casualty figures from both sides are impossible to verify and are generally believed to be higher. In September 2000, the Prague Watchdog website compiled the list of casualties officially announced in the first year of the conflict; although incomplete and with little factual value, the numbers there provide a minimum insight in the information war. According to the figures released by the Russian Ministry of Defence on in August 2005, at least 3,450 Russian Armed Forces soldiers have been killed in action 1999-2005.[58] This death toll did not include losses of the Internal Troops, Federal Security Service, Militsiya and a local paramilitaries, all of whom at least 4,720 were killed by October 2003.[59] The independent Russian and Western estimates are much higher; the Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia for instance estimated about 11,000 Russian Army servicemen have been killed between 1999 and 2003.
Civilian losses
Casualties of the Second Chechen War
Civilian casualty estimates also vary widely. According to Taus Dzhabrailov, top official in the local government, 160,000 combatants and non-combatants died or have gone missing in the two wars, including 30,000–40,000 Chechens and about 100,000 Russians;[60][61] while killed rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov repeatedly claimed about 200,000 ethnic Chechens died in the two conflicts.[62] As in the case of military losses, these claims can not be independently verified - furthermore, independent estimates are often much lower. According to the count by the Russian human rights group Memorial between 15,000 to 25,000 civilians died or disappeared 1999-2006.[citation needed] According to Amnesty International in 2007, the second war has killed up to 25,000 civilians since 1999, with up to another 5,000 people missing.[63]
However, the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society set their estimate of the total death toll in two wars at about 150,000 to 200,000 civilians.So you win again Razin, the Russians/Soviets are mcuh better at this barberous butchery by leaps and bounds in comparsion to the Americans.
That is all!!
