Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan
March 13-16 2008
Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan featured testimony from U.S. veterans who served in those occupations, giving an accurate account of what is really happening day in and day out, on the ground.
The four-day event brought together veterans from across the country to testify about their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan - and presented video and photographic evidence. In addition, there were panels of scholars, veterans, journalists, and other specialists that gave context to the testimony. These panels covered everything from the history of the GI resistance movement to the fight for veterans' health benefits and support.
Testimony videos...
Winter Soldier Mike Prysner testimony Pt1
Part 1 is introductory, deals with the military teaching and using racism, and the bulk of the experience on the ground which involved him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i5ZUfpxnV0
Winter Soldier Mike Prysner testimony Pt2
In part 2 of his testimony is primarily his insight into the greed and power behind the press to war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iTdxBECos8
Winter Soldier Testimony : Hart Viges
US military tactics upside down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvRd53AQi8w
Winter Soldier: Adam Kokesh
On rules of engagement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymd2KiP-PqY
Winter Soldiers: Clifton Hicks and Steven Casey
Indiscriminate killings in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQSe9iBtSrQ
Winter Soldier: An Iraqi perspective
Iraqi journalist Salam Talib describes the divide between the American and Iraqi perspective of the war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clq4Z3Qc2jo
Winter Soldier: Jesse Hamilton
Death blossoms in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKSpVuRBIU
Winter Soldier: Captain Luis Montalvan
Captain Luis Montalvan on the media, propaganda and uncovering the whole story in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnG6eTdFqfA
Winter Soldier: Steve Mortillo
War distorts soldiers' humanity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdxzXUt5StM
Winter soldier testimonials
Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) hold press conference in Washington, DC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjQxMBacLBE
Verifying Winter Soldier
Jose Vasquez talks about the process of verifying the stories of those testifying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ngwnkH4muE
More info and interviews at:
http://ivaw.org/index.php
http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/testimony/video
http://www.warcomeshome.org/
http://therealnews.com/web/index.php?thisd...st&thisid=5
Full Version: Winter Soldier Testimony on YouTube
There is common ground between VVAW Winter Soldiers I, and IVAW Winter Soldiers II Propaganda conference.
In 1972, less than 100 soldiers and 16 civilians, out of over 2.3 million actual boots on the ground serving Veterans, came to a much published media frenzied event in Detroit Michigan to lay out at stream of allegation about American atrocities in Vietnam.
Now, in, March 2008, a similar purposed and intentional propaganda three day conference, was called up drawing less than 200 of only a claimed 800 strong IVAW anti-war group admittedly, on these tapes, made of mostly “in the rear with gear” veterans against the war or in era or theater veterans. That is 1/2000th of the 1.6 million who have severed In Iraq and Afghanistan.
Unlike the original nearly totally discredited Vietnam Fallacy of allegations, few outside the nut root media, where vetting is at best” I heard this or you need virus this” few to none in the true media really even bother to show up at this conference.
Odd for an event, like Vietnam, which potentially had over 1. 6 million story tellers, who have served to draw from, but this group, like the 5 code pink nuts who were outside the conference, could manage only to draw less than 200? That is indeed a credulous vast array of persons who in listening to what they said came across clearly in an organized fashion build on the exact Ideological, organizational and strategic underground network for anti-war propaganda about Iraq and Afghanistan, as was the original one about Vietnam.
Here is the common ground these new Anti-war Veterans have with the first group in 1972 which Kerry lead. The current Group like Kerry’s group has had numerous so called members discredited as either not being veterans at all, or veterans who where never near where they say they saw things happen or have no evident to collaborate what they say and or are unwilling to file formal charges with the Military about what they have said.
In Kerry’s case, three of the most outrages atrocities tellers, all oddly organizers and leaders, where not even veterans, which according to Kerry in his Presidential run in 2004 was one of the reasons he withdrew from the group VVAW. Secondly, NOT one of the original VVAW including Kerry testified under oath as to specific charges they witness giving times, dates and witnesses. Even Kerry admitted in his 2004 Presidential race his “God ###### America” rhetoric was hyperbolic and based on hearsay and stories he had heard but as he testified so craftily, at the time, had no personal knowledge of as to their veracity.
When IVAW are asked, if they will testify under oath, none do, why? Perhaps like the first Winter Soldiers campaign: Credulity is the evil mistresses to a propagandists.
What is the History of "Winter Soldier" Allegations and Why is it Important?
-- In 1971, more than 100 members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) held a three day conference in Detroit to make hundreds of unsupported allegations of war crimes that they claimed to have participated in or witnessed.
-- The VVAW allegations were presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs in April 1971 by John Kerry, in an event given enormous publicity by the "Big Three" networks, ABC, CBS and NBC. The networks and print media repeated the war crime allegation uncritically, without demanding evidence.
-- The Kerry / VVAW allegations were widely believed, and helped contribute to an atmosphere of public contempt toward American Vietnam Veterans.
-- The military was charged with investigating the VVAW allegations, but the results of those investigations were never made public.
-- The U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division (CID) opened cases for 48 VVAW allegations that, if true, would qualify as war crimes. Summary reports show that 25 of the "witnesses" refused to support their allegations with evidence. Several others provided statements that could not be confirmed, or that were contradicted by investigation. At least ten more backtracked on their Winter Soldier allegations when questioned by investigators. Out of 76 allegations made by purported Army VVAW members, [U[only one case[/U] showed probable evidence of a war crime.
Sources:
WinterSoldier.com: Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations
http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/i...hp?page=WSI_CID
FrontPageMagazine.com:
Newly Discovered Army Reports Discredit "Winter Soldier" Claims
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read....0-481C-46BC-AF8 8-D5FE933B3216
What is Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW)?
-- The IVAW is a tax-exempt activist organization founded in July 2004 with the assistance of older radical organizations Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) and Veterans for Peace (VFP). IVAW obtains its 501©3 tax exempt status from the latter group.
Source (VFP):
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupPr....asp?grpid=6244
-- IVAW calls for the immediate withdrawal of all of what it calls "occupying" forces in Iraq, reparations to be paid, and an end of corporate pillaging by the U.S.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/about Who are IVAW's Members?
-- The organization claims about 800 members, which would be 1/2000th of the 1.6 million who have served in Afghanistan (OEF) and Iraq (OIF) if all the IVAW members had actually served in either theatre.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/
-- The organization's name is misleading. Service in Iraq (or Afghanistan) is not a requirement for membership. Membership criteria is that a veteran or active duty person had to serve in any capacity in the active duty military, National Guard or Reserves for any period of time after September 11, 2001.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/membership
-- A significant but unknown number of members, likely 20% - 40% based on IVAW's public member profiles, have not deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/view/profiles What are IVAW's Main Activities?
-- Primarily demonstrations, street theatre and using whatever media they can to further the anti-war cause, much of it having to do with vague but constant charges of atrocities and war crimes by American forces.
Sources: Sunday Times, Mar 2, 2008: We Came, We Saw, We Murdered
http://ivaw.org/images/LondonTimesMagazinecover.jpg
Video: Commanders Encourage War Crimes - The Killing of Civilians is Policy
http://trevorsnyder.info/watch-video/cwYvd...aq-war-veterans :-commanders-encourage-war-crimes.html
Does IVAW Have a History of Credibility Problems? Yes. Here are a few examples:
-- In May 2006 an IVAW member named Jesse MacBeth appeared in a video widely circulated on the Internet. MacBeth claimed to have been a Ranger in Iraq who had committed horrific atrocities with his unit, including the execution of hundreds of men, women and children. However, MacBeth was exposed as a fraud who had been dismissed from the Army before completing Basic Training.
Source:SeattleTimes
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...ranger08m0.html
-- In 2005, IVAW founder Jimmy Massy, a Marine veteran of Iraq, was found to have fabricated stories published in the Modesto Bee, the Sacramento Bee and the Associated Press. Ron Harris of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and four other embedded reporters and other Marines in Massey's unit refuted the claims. The news organizations published retractions.
Sources:Jewish World Review
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin110905.php3
-- In an interview in March 2005, IVAW leader Camilo Mejia was asked if he had ever abused or tortured detainees in Iraq and replied in the negative. During his court martial for desertion Mejia again made no claims to have done or been ordered to do so, which claim if made might have strengthened his defense. However, in an interview the next August with Dahr Jamail, author of "Beyond the Green Zone", Mejia's story changed to "I tortured guys."
Sources: PBS
http://www.pbs.org/now/news/330-transcript.html
Dahr Jamail's Mideast Dispatches
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/...ches/000271.php
Point of Clarity News
http://www.pointofclarity.org/news/story.cfm?nID=50
-- In the same interview with Dahr Jamail in Aug 2005, Jamail wrote of what several IVAW members were telling him "I type furiously for three hours, trying to keep up with the stories each of the men shared....about the atrocities of what they saw, and committed, while in Iraq." IVAW member Harvey Tharp was quoted by Jamail saying "Most of what we are talking about is war crimes...war crimes because they are directed by our government for power projection." However, in an interview with the Yemen Times published on Feb 25, 2008, Tharp admitted to never having witnessed an atrocity in Iraq.
Sources:Dahr Jamail's Mideast Dispatches
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/...ches/000271.php
Yemen Times
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1132...=report&a=1
Are The Atrocity and War Crimes Stories Told by IVAW Members True?
-- The stories follow a familiar pattern. Wartime events that are often both legal and moral, but that may have disturbing or tragic consequences out of the realm of normal civilian experience are deliberately mischaracterized by IVAW activists to put them in the worst possible light.
-- The stories are invariably presented without the details that would enable them to be verified. Nor is there any indication that the alleged events were reported to the chain of command when they happened, as is required in the case of genuine crimes by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
Sources:TimesOnline http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3444835.ece ?Submitted=true
Video:CommandersEncourageWarCrimes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYvdyn3oRc
About.com:UniformCodeofMilitaryJustice http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawl...on/l/blucmj.htm
How Should the Media Respond to the Winter Soldier Stories and Allegations?
-- Journalists should exert due diligence to establish the truth and search for the facts that will verify or refute each allegation.
-- An acronym has been developed as a simple guide to what should reasonably be asked by journalists of those making allegations: DUPES:
D: Date(s) - When did the incident occur? U: Unit(s) - What military units were involved? P: Personnel - What are the names of the participants and witnesses? E: Event(s) - What exactly happened exactly where?
S: Signature(s) - Was this reported at the time or later and were reports, affidavits or depositions signed, or will they now be signed?
-- Journalists can and should check with the Pentagon to verify service claimed (via DD214) of testifiers.
-- Statements and written accounts made by many members of IVAW are readily available on the Internet and should be checked against the claims made at Winter Soldier to establish consistency or changes in these allegations over time.
-- If such questions are not asked, answered, and professionally followed up, journalists are merely helping activists spread political propaganda.
For more information on IVAW and the 2008 Winter Soldier Investigation: http://keohane.blogspot.com/
For more information on VVAW and the 1971 Winter Soldier Investigation: http://www.wintersoldier.com/
To schedule an interview with a Stop the Slander representative, contact Denis Keohane,
Obiter Dictum Blog: http://keohane.blogspot.com/
That is all!!
In 1972, less than 100 soldiers and 16 civilians, out of over 2.3 million actual boots on the ground serving Veterans, came to a much published media frenzied event in Detroit Michigan to lay out at stream of allegation about American atrocities in Vietnam.
Now, in, March 2008, a similar purposed and intentional propaganda three day conference, was called up drawing less than 200 of only a claimed 800 strong IVAW anti-war group admittedly, on these tapes, made of mostly “in the rear with gear” veterans against the war or in era or theater veterans. That is 1/2000th of the 1.6 million who have severed In Iraq and Afghanistan.
Unlike the original nearly totally discredited Vietnam Fallacy of allegations, few outside the nut root media, where vetting is at best” I heard this or you need virus this” few to none in the true media really even bother to show up at this conference.
Odd for an event, like Vietnam, which potentially had over 1. 6 million story tellers, who have served to draw from, but this group, like the 5 code pink nuts who were outside the conference, could manage only to draw less than 200? That is indeed a credulous vast array of persons who in listening to what they said came across clearly in an organized fashion build on the exact Ideological, organizational and strategic underground network for anti-war propaganda about Iraq and Afghanistan, as was the original one about Vietnam.
Here is the common ground these new Anti-war Veterans have with the first group in 1972 which Kerry lead. The current Group like Kerry’s group has had numerous so called members discredited as either not being veterans at all, or veterans who where never near where they say they saw things happen or have no evident to collaborate what they say and or are unwilling to file formal charges with the Military about what they have said.
In Kerry’s case, three of the most outrages atrocities tellers, all oddly organizers and leaders, where not even veterans, which according to Kerry in his Presidential run in 2004 was one of the reasons he withdrew from the group VVAW. Secondly, NOT one of the original VVAW including Kerry testified under oath as to specific charges they witness giving times, dates and witnesses. Even Kerry admitted in his 2004 Presidential race his “God ###### America” rhetoric was hyperbolic and based on hearsay and stories he had heard but as he testified so craftily, at the time, had no personal knowledge of as to their veracity.
When IVAW are asked, if they will testify under oath, none do, why? Perhaps like the first Winter Soldiers campaign: Credulity is the evil mistresses to a propagandists.
What is the History of "Winter Soldier" Allegations and Why is it Important?
-- In 1971, more than 100 members of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) held a three day conference in Detroit to make hundreds of unsupported allegations of war crimes that they claimed to have participated in or witnessed.
-- The VVAW allegations were presented to the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs in April 1971 by John Kerry, in an event given enormous publicity by the "Big Three" networks, ABC, CBS and NBC. The networks and print media repeated the war crime allegation uncritically, without demanding evidence.
-- The Kerry / VVAW allegations were widely believed, and helped contribute to an atmosphere of public contempt toward American Vietnam Veterans.
-- The military was charged with investigating the VVAW allegations, but the results of those investigations were never made public.
-- The U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division (CID) opened cases for 48 VVAW allegations that, if true, would qualify as war crimes. Summary reports show that 25 of the "witnesses" refused to support their allegations with evidence. Several others provided statements that could not be confirmed, or that were contradicted by investigation. At least ten more backtracked on their Winter Soldier allegations when questioned by investigators. Out of 76 allegations made by purported Army VVAW members, [U[only one case[/U] showed probable evidence of a war crime.
Sources:
WinterSoldier.com: Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations
http://www.wintersoldier.com/staticpages/i...hp?page=WSI_CID
FrontPageMagazine.com:
Newly Discovered Army Reports Discredit "Winter Soldier" Claims
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read....0-481C-46BC-AF8 8-D5FE933B3216
What is Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW)?
-- The IVAW is a tax-exempt activist organization founded in July 2004 with the assistance of older radical organizations Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) and Veterans for Peace (VFP). IVAW obtains its 501©3 tax exempt status from the latter group.
Source (VFP):
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupPr....asp?grpid=6244
-- IVAW calls for the immediate withdrawal of all of what it calls "occupying" forces in Iraq, reparations to be paid, and an end of corporate pillaging by the U.S.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/about Who are IVAW's Members?
-- The organization claims about 800 members, which would be 1/2000th of the 1.6 million who have served in Afghanistan (OEF) and Iraq (OIF) if all the IVAW members had actually served in either theatre.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/
-- The organization's name is misleading. Service in Iraq (or Afghanistan) is not a requirement for membership. Membership criteria is that a veteran or active duty person had to serve in any capacity in the active duty military, National Guard or Reserves for any period of time after September 11, 2001.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/membership
-- A significant but unknown number of members, likely 20% - 40% based on IVAW's public member profiles, have not deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan.
Source:
http://ivaw.org/view/profiles What are IVAW's Main Activities?
-- Primarily demonstrations, street theatre and using whatever media they can to further the anti-war cause, much of it having to do with vague but constant charges of atrocities and war crimes by American forces.
Sources: Sunday Times, Mar 2, 2008: We Came, We Saw, We Murdered
http://ivaw.org/images/LondonTimesMagazinecover.jpg
Video: Commanders Encourage War Crimes - The Killing of Civilians is Policy
http://trevorsnyder.info/watch-video/cwYvd...aq-war-veterans :-commanders-encourage-war-crimes.html
Does IVAW Have a History of Credibility Problems? Yes. Here are a few examples:
-- In May 2006 an IVAW member named Jesse MacBeth appeared in a video widely circulated on the Internet. MacBeth claimed to have been a Ranger in Iraq who had committed horrific atrocities with his unit, including the execution of hundreds of men, women and children. However, MacBeth was exposed as a fraud who had been dismissed from the Army before completing Basic Training.
Source:SeattleTimes
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...ranger08m0.html
-- In 2005, IVAW founder Jimmy Massy, a Marine veteran of Iraq, was found to have fabricated stories published in the Modesto Bee, the Sacramento Bee and the Associated Press. Ron Harris of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and four other embedded reporters and other Marines in Massey's unit refuted the claims. The news organizations published retractions.
Sources:Jewish World Review
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin110905.php3
-- In an interview in March 2005, IVAW leader Camilo Mejia was asked if he had ever abused or tortured detainees in Iraq and replied in the negative. During his court martial for desertion Mejia again made no claims to have done or been ordered to do so, which claim if made might have strengthened his defense. However, in an interview the next August with Dahr Jamail, author of "Beyond the Green Zone", Mejia's story changed to "I tortured guys."
Sources: PBS
http://www.pbs.org/now/news/330-transcript.html
Dahr Jamail's Mideast Dispatches
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/...ches/000271.php
Point of Clarity News
http://www.pointofclarity.org/news/story.cfm?nID=50
-- In the same interview with Dahr Jamail in Aug 2005, Jamail wrote of what several IVAW members were telling him "I type furiously for three hours, trying to keep up with the stories each of the men shared....about the atrocities of what they saw, and committed, while in Iraq." IVAW member Harvey Tharp was quoted by Jamail saying "Most of what we are talking about is war crimes...war crimes because they are directed by our government for power projection." However, in an interview with the Yemen Times published on Feb 25, 2008, Tharp admitted to never having witnessed an atrocity in Iraq.
Sources:Dahr Jamail's Mideast Dispatches
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/...ches/000271.php
Yemen Times
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1132...=report&a=1
Are The Atrocity and War Crimes Stories Told by IVAW Members True?
-- The stories follow a familiar pattern. Wartime events that are often both legal and moral, but that may have disturbing or tragic consequences out of the realm of normal civilian experience are deliberately mischaracterized by IVAW activists to put them in the worst possible light.
-- The stories are invariably presented without the details that would enable them to be verified. Nor is there any indication that the alleged events were reported to the chain of command when they happened, as is required in the case of genuine crimes by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
Sources:TimesOnline http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3444835.ece ?Submitted=true
Video:CommandersEncourageWarCrimes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYvdyn3oRc
About.com:UniformCodeofMilitaryJustice http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawl...on/l/blucmj.htm
How Should the Media Respond to the Winter Soldier Stories and Allegations?
-- Journalists should exert due diligence to establish the truth and search for the facts that will verify or refute each allegation.
-- An acronym has been developed as a simple guide to what should reasonably be asked by journalists of those making allegations: DUPES:
D: Date(s) - When did the incident occur? U: Unit(s) - What military units were involved? P: Personnel - What are the names of the participants and witnesses? E: Event(s) - What exactly happened exactly where?
S: Signature(s) - Was this reported at the time or later and were reports, affidavits or depositions signed, or will they now be signed?
-- Journalists can and should check with the Pentagon to verify service claimed (via DD214) of testifiers.
-- Statements and written accounts made by many members of IVAW are readily available on the Internet and should be checked against the claims made at Winter Soldier to establish consistency or changes in these allegations over time.
-- If such questions are not asked, answered, and professionally followed up, journalists are merely helping activists spread political propaganda.
For more information on IVAW and the 2008 Winter Soldier Investigation: http://keohane.blogspot.com/
For more information on VVAW and the 1971 Winter Soldier Investigation: http://www.wintersoldier.com/
To schedule an interview with a Stop the Slander representative, contact Denis Keohane,
Obiter Dictum Blog: http://keohane.blogspot.com/
That is all!!
Winter Soldier LiveBlog: Wrapping it all up.
by Justin Cliburn | Sun, 03/16/2008 - 1:27pm
This weekend has been very draining. Hearing the testimony is tough enough, but sharing the testimony with you through this medium is doubly difficult. It is hard to listen to Joyce and Kevin Lucie's testimony about finding their son hanging by a garden hose, feel the lump in my throat, wipe a tear from an eye, and still type vigorously in an effort to accurately convey what it is like here. I didn't always do as good of a job as I wanted to, but I tried. I sometimes took breaks in between testimony for my mental welfare, and that is why some of the panelists are not listed in my blog. I apologize to them and to you; nothing was intentional.
This has been an incredible experience, but it doesn't stop here, America. Show the archived videos on the website to your friends, family, and elected officials. The only reason I heard about the original Winter Soldier was because of so many slandering the military service of John Kerry in 2004. Don't let that happen to us; keep the memory of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan alive. Today, it may be men and women you've never heard of, but, if these occupations continue to escalate, it may one day be your little brother or sister or son or daughter or niece or nephew . . . or that nice boy down the street . . . or the babysitter of your children. Do not let this crime survive one more generation of our children!
Justin C. Cliburn
Proud Member of Iraq Veterans Against the War
South Central Region Coordinator
http://ivaw.org/node/2953
Justin C. Cliburn's entire LiveBlog entries for Winter Soldier 2008 can be read here: http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/blog
by Justin Cliburn | Sun, 03/16/2008 - 1:27pm
This weekend has been very draining. Hearing the testimony is tough enough, but sharing the testimony with you through this medium is doubly difficult. It is hard to listen to Joyce and Kevin Lucie's testimony about finding their son hanging by a garden hose, feel the lump in my throat, wipe a tear from an eye, and still type vigorously in an effort to accurately convey what it is like here. I didn't always do as good of a job as I wanted to, but I tried. I sometimes took breaks in between testimony for my mental welfare, and that is why some of the panelists are not listed in my blog. I apologize to them and to you; nothing was intentional.
This has been an incredible experience, but it doesn't stop here, America. Show the archived videos on the website to your friends, family, and elected officials. The only reason I heard about the original Winter Soldier was because of so many slandering the military service of John Kerry in 2004. Don't let that happen to us; keep the memory of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan alive. Today, it may be men and women you've never heard of, but, if these occupations continue to escalate, it may one day be your little brother or sister or son or daughter or niece or nephew . . . or that nice boy down the street . . . or the babysitter of your children. Do not let this crime survive one more generation of our children!
Justin C. Cliburn
Proud Member of Iraq Veterans Against the War
South Central Region Coordinator
http://ivaw.org/node/2953
Justin C. Cliburn's entire LiveBlog entries for Winter Soldier 2008 can be read here: http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/blog
QUOTE (Cobra @ Mar 18 2008, 04:58 PM) 
Winter Soldier LiveBlog: Wrapping it all up.
by Justin Cliburn | Sun, 03/16/2008 - 1:27pm
This weekend has been very draining. Hearing the testimony is tough enough, but sharing the testimony with you through this medium is doubly difficult. It is hard to listen to Joyce and Kevin Lucie's testimony about finding their son hanging by a garden hose, feel the lump in my throat, wipe a tear from an eye, and still type vigorously in an effort to accurately convey what it is like here. I didn't always do as good of a job as I wanted to, but I tried. I sometimes took breaks in between testimony for my mental welfare, and that is why some of the panelists are not listed in my blog. I apologize to them and to you; nothing was intentional.
This has been an incredible experience, but it doesn't stop here, America. Show the archived videos on the website to your friends, family, and elected officials. The only reason I heard about the original Winter Soldier was because of so many slandering the military service of John Kerry in 2004. Don't let that happen to us; keep the memory of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan alive. Today, it may be men and women you've never heard of, but, if these occupations continue to escalate, it may one day be your little brother or sister or son or daughter or niece or nephew . . . or that nice boy down the street . . . or the babysitter of your children. Do not let this crime survive one more generation of our children!
Justin C. Cliburn
Proud Member of Iraq Veterans Against the War
South Central Region Coordinator
http://ivaw.org/node/2953
Justin C. Cliburn's entire LiveBlog entries for Winter Soldier 2008 can be read here: http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/blog
by Justin Cliburn | Sun, 03/16/2008 - 1:27pm
This weekend has been very draining. Hearing the testimony is tough enough, but sharing the testimony with you through this medium is doubly difficult. It is hard to listen to Joyce and Kevin Lucie's testimony about finding their son hanging by a garden hose, feel the lump in my throat, wipe a tear from an eye, and still type vigorously in an effort to accurately convey what it is like here. I didn't always do as good of a job as I wanted to, but I tried. I sometimes took breaks in between testimony for my mental welfare, and that is why some of the panelists are not listed in my blog. I apologize to them and to you; nothing was intentional.
This has been an incredible experience, but it doesn't stop here, America. Show the archived videos on the website to your friends, family, and elected officials. The only reason I heard about the original Winter Soldier was because of so many slandering the military service of John Kerry in 2004. Don't let that happen to us; keep the memory of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan alive. Today, it may be men and women you've never heard of, but, if these occupations continue to escalate, it may one day be your little brother or sister or son or daughter or niece or nephew . . . or that nice boy down the street . . . or the babysitter of your children. Do not let this crime survive one more generation of our children!
Justin C. Cliburn
Proud Member of Iraq Veterans Against the War
South Central Region Coordinator
http://ivaw.org/node/2953
Justin C. Cliburn's entire LiveBlog entries for Winter Soldier 2008 can be read here: http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier/blog
Where is the beef!
Why no legally sworn testimony about all this horrible atricities by American troops?
Why are there NO offical legal complaints being made by these men?
Perhaps as before, the beef is in the small number of agenda driven Story tellers, who seem oddly detatched from reality, on the one hand, Joning the Military and speaking now in idioms of disbelief, as if they never rationalized that WAR and all its ugliness and horror was a REAL possibility for them. Thinking as if, it was like life in narcassistic America, where if you don't like it, you just can quit and then complain about it. Instead of maning up and making offical charges as any honest person would.
These guy have but one theme, blaming one side, by telling of one side evil, while oddly convieniently, like Kerry's group before. NEVER MENTIONING OF THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS EQUATIONS BARBARITY AS IF MAGICALLY IT DID NOT EXIST OR IS SOMEHOW JUSTIFIED, WHILE OTHERS, AS ALLEGED, ARE NOT.
QUOTE
Give me a man who tells but one side of a story as if it was all there was to it, and I will give you a man of self convienence, who dares not tell the other sides of the story, for a convenience of self.- Trader
1/2000th of ALL does not a story or truth make, nor does a charge of murtha-dramatics, like the Cold Blooded Murderers of Haditha, prove a story true and factual in its totality.
THESE 800 have been around for several years, YET NOT ONE HAS BEEN LINKED IN A LEGAL CASE THAT PROOFS WHAT THEY SAY IS TRUE.
WHY, any honest and objective person would or shouldf ask, if they knew atrocities had occured would hesitate to see that justice was done. WHY IS IT NONE of THESE 800 out of 1.6 million HAVE NOT DONE THAT?
Let us make it clear, NO true American wants our troops commiting atrocities and likewise would insist if they did, that they should be punished. SO WHERE IS THE BEEF, IVAW?
That is all!!
QUOTE
there were panels of scholars, veterans, journalists, and other specialists that gave context to the testimony. These panels covered everything from the history of the GI resistance movement
And exactly WHO are these scholars, veterans, journalists, and other specialists?????????????
QUOTE
GI resistance movement
?????????????Resisting WHAT??? This IS a volunteer military. The purpose of which is to kill people and destroy things. A half dozen anti American cowards does not a resistant movement make.
Fool.....................................
QUOTE (Nomad @ Mar 19 2008, 10:01 AM)
This IS a volunteer military. The purpose of which is to kill people and destroy things.
Nice to know there might be one thing we agree on. 
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