"A leading US senator says both parties in Congress have reached agreement on the outline of a $700bn (£380bn) bail-out plan to revive the finance sector.

Democrat Senator Christopher Dodd said they had reached "fundamental agreement" on the principles of a package though he did not give details.

He said Congress could act in the next few days to pass a bill on the subject.

A main concern for Democrats and Republicans has been who will bear the brunt of the cost of the package.";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7636542.stm?lsm

"The bail-out has been under scrutiny with politicians on both sides nervous about the deal being rushed through too quickly.

Of particular concern has been the issue of pay for the bosses of the firms in question, as well as concerns over the cost of the plan to the US taxpayer.

But both US Federal Reserve head Ben Bernanke and US President George W Bush have warned that without a deal, it would cause a significant set-back to the economy as a whole.

Those in favour of the deal have argued that:

* The deal would boost global financial stability
* Increase investor confidence
* Prevent a global slowdown
* Encourage banks to lend to each other, and beat the credit crunch

Those with reservations have said the bail-out would:

* Cost the taxpayer too much money
* Benefit bosses of firms who have taken huge risks
* Increase state debt
* Give too much power to the US Treasury"


IMHO none of the positives are certainties (and if these things do work, people aren't sure to what extent they will work at). The negatives are all very real and certain though.
Some most recommended comments from the BBC peoples debate on the matter of whether the US should bail out the banks or not;

"Forty million Americans can't afford health insurance; the minimum wage hasn't been raised in 10 years and the country has one of the worst poverty levels in the developed world. Yet as soon as the rich squeal $700 billion is magically found. America needs a second revolution.

colin craig, Stratford"

"The US bail-out is doomed to failure unless there are strict rules put in place.

A US woman banker has been paid $40+ million bonuses while 20,000 have lost jobs in the business.

The money NEEDS to be protected from the likes of George Soros who speculate & force & manipulate circumstances so they can gain. He made over $1billion from UK taxpayers by selling the £ & forcing it down & then profitting.

$700 billion unprotected, the sharks/hyenas etc are just waiting to grab a piece of it

Iain Connochie"

"NO!

They are attempting to STEAL from taxpayers to cover the elite's bad debt. This is a swindle, a sham, and if passed the final nail in America's coffin.

Many, many Americans are outraged and upset.This is theft, and if the BBC had any integrity left, they would use all those skills they were taught in journalism school to uncover the deeper story lurking within.

Eli, US"

"The billions of dollars would be much better spent on providing the capital needed for an alternative banking system, the "Ordinary People's Bank". There are plenty of computers and buildings left over from the failed banks to provide the infrastructure and indeed plenty of people with the expertise.
This way the taxpayer will make a modest dollar as proper banking is inherently modestly profitable. The toxic loans should stay where they are and poison only the gamblers who made them.

jonathan lucas, malaga, Spain"

"NO! NO! NO!

If the crooks on Wall $treet really believe in a free market, then they should suffer the consequences of their miscalculations and malfeasance... in the same manner that they expect to enjoy profits.

And the 700 BILLION dollar corp-rat welfare bailout from the U.$. taxpayers will prove to be a feckless effort. What about the worthless derivatives and other leveraged $cams? Eh? I'm talking about 600 TRILLION to one QUADRILLION (1000 trillion) dollars of worthless paper!

Guy Fox, Key West/Tampa Bay, United States"

"Great choice for the American tax payers. Support the bail out or face economic melt down. Either way, you pay.

[lewvdc], London, United Kingdom"

US economy will be a mess – with or without the bail out.

Without the bail out, the shareholders will suffer; many are rich individuals or states (ie China) outside America. With the bail out, US taxpayers will suffer, maybe not half as severe as in the previous scenario as one would hope the rescue plan would dampen the stress in the market.

The best rescue plan for America would be to get out of Iraq & Afghanistan, which will do wonders both for its economy & politics!

[Hilary277]"

etc.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jsp...95203#paginator



What are your opinions on this whole mess now that the US has agreed to bail out the banks using taxpayers money?

More breaking news;

Wall Street rescue deal blocked

"Talks to agree a huge $700bn (£380bn) bail-out of the US financial industry have ended in a "shouting match".

After several hours of discussions with President George W Bush, a group of Republican members of Congress blocked the government plan.

The proposal would have seen the government buy bad debts from US banks"

"On Thursday, Democrat and Republican legislators appeared to have struck a deal.

A group of Democrats and Republicans even made a public statement, with Senator Christopher Dodd, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, announcing that they had reached "fundamental agreement" on the principles of a bail-out plan.

But after the White House meeting, the top Republican on the committee, Richard Shelby, told reporters: "I don't believe we have an agreement."";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7636943.stm?lsm

Breaking news;
'Great progress' in US bail-out

"US congressional leaders say they have reached the broad outline of a rescue plan for the American financial system.

Democratic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said "great progress" had been made - but details remain to be worked out.

The Bush administration wants $700bn (£380bn) to be able to buy bad debt that is freezing up financial markets.

A vote could be held in the House of Representatives as early as Sunday, with negotiators keen to reassure the markets before they reopen on Monday.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7640223.stm


Groups/parties/people working together has brought this recent positive news. (Unlike what some here would like to believe), no one single man is responsible for this change, no single party gloating therefore is warranted.
But lets see what happens to this fragile new progress...

Breaking news;

Shares slump as rescue bid fails;

"US and European shares have tumbled after the $700bn (£380bn) US bail-out was rejected and amid a slew of bad news from the troubled banking sector.

Wall Street shares fell more than 5% after Congress surprised observers by not backing the rescue plan - the Dow Jones at one point losing 705 points.

London's key index had lost 5.3% - its biggest one-day drop since January.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7641173.stm?lsm


The market is fickle, but my general opinion on the bail-out right from the start is that it will help, but only a little (and IMHO not enough).

Breaking news;

Asia stocks fall after US failure

"Stock markets across Asia have fallen sharply, with some losing 3% of their value, after a US financial rescue plan failed to gain Congressional backing.

In a shock move, the US House of Representatives rejected a $700bn (£380bn) plan to bail out Wall Street.

Japan's main Nikkei index was down 3% in afternoon trading. It came after the US Dow Jones index saw its biggest one-day points fall, dropping nearly 7%.

US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said it was vital to get a new deal.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7643340.stm

So much for McCain saving the day as some here crowed!




And more bad effects from America's incompetency and failure;

US failure hits European shares

"European share indexes have been volatile in Tuesday trading after a US financial rescue plan failed to gain Congressional backing.

With the US House of Representatives rejecting the $700bn (£380bn) rescue deal, the UK's FTSE 100 fell as much as 3% before recovering to rise 0.3%.

Asian stocks had already seen big declines in Tuesday trading.

US President George W Bush is due to speak shortly on the deadlock over the bailout plan";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7643441.stm

"sigh"...;

"Following the US rejection of the rescue deal, a number of developments have hit the global financial sector:

* The UK's FTSE 100 index was up 0.3% or 14 points to 4,832 by 1300 BST, while Germany's Dax was 0.7% lower at 5,770 and France's Cac was up 0.3% to 3,957
* Banking shares were the biggest fallers in London, as concerns grow about how the delay in securing a US rescue deal will hit the financial system
* HBOS was down 10%, Royal Bank of Scotland was 6% lower
* Japan's Nikkei index ended Tuesday down 4.1%, while Hong Kong's Hang Seng rose 0.8%
* In Russia, trading was temporarily suspended on the country's two main stock markets
* In the Republic of Ireland, the government announced that all bank deposits would be guaranteed for the next two years
* European bank Dexia has received a state bail-out, costing the Belgian, French and Luxembourg governments a combined 6.4bn euros ($9.2bn; £5bn)

Analyst Richard Hunter, head of equities at Hargreaves Lansdown stockbrokers, said European investors were hopeful the US will eventually pass the bailout plan.

"This deal is not dead in the water and there are hopes that when Congress reconvenes it could still go through," he said."




Bank lending rate rises sharply

"The interest rate at which banks lend money to each other has soared overnight to record levels, says the British Bankers' Association (BBA).

The Libor rate for borrowing dollars overnight hit 6.87% - the highest for more than seven and a half years and a record daily jump.

The rise came despite huge cash injections by central banks after the rejection of the US bail-out plan.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7644133.stm?lsm




Bush warning over bail-out delay

"US President George W Bush has warned the US economy is at a "critical moment" as he vowed to get his Wall Street rescue plan through Congress.

Mr Bush made the pledge a day after the US House of Representatives blocked the $700bn (£380bn) deal.

He said he wanted to reassure citizens of the US - and the wider world - that the current political deadlock would be resolved soon.

World stock markets have had another volatile day.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7644265.stm

I don't know about you guys, but i personally don't have much faith in your governments pledge of reassurance to sort this situation out sooner rather than later; we were already reassured a little while ago about progress being made and look where we are now- worser off than ever!

More breaking news;

Why did the bail-out bill fail?

"There were a few moments between the casting of the final vote in Congress and the announcement that the $700bn (£380bn) bail-out had been rejected when the world of American politics appeared to be frozen.

Votes in the House of Representatives are not official until the Speaker's gavel is lowered and - for what felt like an eternity - the speaker's gavel remained suspended above the desk.

News services waited for several minutes before calling the result - a rare enough occurrence in a world of instant information.

Rumours began to circulate that attempts were being made to change the minds of some of the members who had voted "no".";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7643199.stm?lsm


""The search for a fix is already under way, but you can be sure it will now take place against a backdrop of plunging share prices all around the world.

It is possible that the sense of global crisis may - perversely - offer a way out of this.

American voters simply have not seen this as a crisis that affects their real lives on Main Street - it is seen as a welfare scheme for the humbled plutocrats of Wall Street.

If the problems deepen and people suddenly see unemployment rising because businesses cannot get money from the banks to pay their bills and honour their payrolls, then that sentiment might change.

That is the optimistic assessment - that American lawmakers and voters having registered their pain and anger will eventually fall into line and give the US Treasury the money it wants.

The pessimistic assessment is almost too frightening to contemplate.

It is that a majority of members of Congress, backed by their voters, simply do not believe in a plan which basically involves the United States government borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars to prop up a financial system which is clearly deeply flawed.

If the warnings from US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson are to believed, such a decision would usher in an age of catastrophe."


Stupid Americans.
(I'm just musing back to the ironic time before all this happened when i had to explain to Avenger how us Brits and the rest of the world support the American economy, and to Nomad on how what America does actually effect the rest of the world and so we have a right to express our opinion on American matters. Funny how when you're economy is f*cked and your incompetent government is screwing things up even more you start looking towards us and others to help your countries problems out. The biggest shame is that we DO end up suffering the consequences of your countries actions. Ha, well nobody wants to trade with you anymore now, go wallow in your own self-pity and fight amongst yourselves. The only sympathy i have is for those decent hard-working and compassionate Americans who actually showed the rest of the world some respect and weren't completely self-absorbed with their idea of their own supremacy/superiority as Americans etc).

Toky, are you kind like bending over and kissing your future good bye here, in this usual angry rant, My, Mile End, Mockney-Brummie lass?

Are those Pakis, at the fish and chips or with the convenient store jobs, perhaps looking your future now lassy?

They get relocation assistance, job assistance, housing, MHS assistance, and will work for 25 % less than your lot, must seem well off compare to what you are seeing for your future based on what you rnated about here.

Not to worry, it will be mucked up by your lot’s nanny state anyway, one way or the other.

Are getting ready for a diminished future, our little dispelling disciple of negativity.



In the last 6 months of fear and doom panic, stampeded by the 24/7 cycle, tongued in political and media harangues of cynicism virused over nut-root, I have made more money than any 6 months in my entire life.

I did so having the will to risk a lot, to gain a lot. In that was luck and instinctive skills learned that in seeing panicking weakness, real or imagined, arises abundant opportunism, that is egalitarian in chances for either success and or failure for bold to risk if they dare.

Is the free lunch period over Lass? If so get ready to give up the only life you have ever known, the right to entitled assistance from the nanny state without having to get down in muck and mire to earn it the hard way, through hard work and high risk.

Это всё!!

Some like to bait other into a discussion and then get personal with the insults, doncha know? .

What happened to your little fly, Trader?

You don't need to concern yourself over my future Trader, i'm set up for life- i too have played the markets wisely, and while this year hasn't been the most profitable of years, i have still profited rather than lost at the end of the day through similar means as yours . Times of great loss and fear can also be times of great opportunities as they say .

But enough of us, what sympathy/compassion do you have for your fellow American's? While you sit comfortably on your stack of money (and it seems your not the only one bragging about it, Nomad too has openly professed to making great profits this year), will you help those less fortunate than you?
At the end of the day, i know i am a very lucky individual, and i also sympathize for those less fortunate than myself- just because you don't make any money does not mean that you deserve to have nothing, and unfortunately it looks like this is the future a lot of average normal Americans have to look towards.



I don't think Ustrader needs you to nanny him- another pointless post by Solonaff.

You don't need to concern yourself over my future Trader, i'm set up for life- i too have played the markets wisely, and while this year hasn't been the most profitable of years, i have still profited rather than lost at the end of the day through similar means as yours . Times of great loss and fear can also be times of great opportunities as they say . Actually Toky, as I said very specifically above and often. Just for record you know.

I am always concerned about my fellow man, darling, but I am gald to hear you are a capitalist pig like the rest of us though.

Yet rather queer remarks Toky, a 22 year old, likely 17, setup for life and making profits by similar means as I have, though I never mentioned how I have done better? Rather Amazingly psychic is it not?

Are in the UK’s who’s who, Toky, with just a great accomplishment at such a tender age and with your Utopian Ideals and all, one would have to be is that not true? I am impressed.

I bet you worked real hard, all of those 17, allegedly 22 years, to be set for life huh Toky? ( Said with Hip boots on, as its getting very deep in here)

First off, I did not mention what means I have done better, so just how is you did as I did as if you never knew how I did it, or did you assume you did, and or, how I did it?

Second, as is your usual socialist’s ideal’s of presume, that base idiom founded as such as only they can stand the muster of martyrdom in ever acting and seeking to protect the weakest among us. Yet oddly, in the most capitalists of countries both internally and externally American giving to the less fortunate has not been unequalled or even matched by anyone for 50 years.

So I am having a pregnant pause to ponder here as to precisely how you can prove that Americans do not act in deeds to protect the weakest and needy,
both inside our Country, and outside of it.

I assure I can blow you away with facts that so that is far from the case as to anyone else’s equal, for more than 50 years.

As you sputter so righteously in assuming you are correct in your U-dope-ian socialist ideas, that you know me so well as to be absolutely certain I do not care, nor do anything, or act in any way, to help or be concerned about the needy and worst off than I am. I will only say, I will gladly show you mine, if you will show me yours first.

You go first and tell us how your using and to what extent your using all your set for life capital to take care the needy in the UK and other nations, then I will follow.

But enough of us, what sympathy/compassion do you have for your fellow American's? While you sit comfortably on your stack of money (and it seems your not the only one bragging about it.

I am sorry, but is not a person who claims to be “set for life” NOT bragging about it?

I already asked you to show me the needy money honey, where you give so much to save the world you so profit from, in its bad times, as you so brag about as an equal capitalist pig as I.

Now how does that make you different that me exactly?

Nomad too has openly professed to making great profits this year), will you help those less fortunate than you?

The problem with a righteous demagogue, like yourself, is they, in assuming what they do not know about what others do and or don’t do, because they think, from the high hill of self professed martyrdom, they characterize in, surelythey must have done more good and noble things than anyone especially from those whom they disagree. That is called the character flaw of self arrogant presumption, knowing less and assuming you know more.

But a 22 year old fixed for life has worked so hard for it, I am sure they understand that right toky?



At the end of the day, i know i am a very lucky individual, and i also sympathize for those less fortunate than myself- just because you don't make any money does not mean that you deserve to have nothing, and unfortunately it looks like this is the future a lot of average normal Americans have to look towards.

I noticed you danced away and over my equal analogy of you fellow UK-raker’s depressed lifes and not so favorable future, why?

You do know this not the first time you DOOM and GLOOMER'S prophetic fantastics have said that about America.

Then again, it is easy to look as the US and forget your near crumbled economic system that is stretched in socialist nanny states entitled burdens well beyond it socialist ability to sustain itself, now, and most especially, in the next 25 years, is it not?

You being the 22 capitalist pig wiz girl, set for life, from the UK, wink, should know a rock thrown from a glass house underwater, is not a good thing, right?

You want to compare economies as they stand right now and in the future. I am game are you?

Nice Chatting with you.

Это всё!!

Being "concerned" for your fellow man is not the same as actually doing something to help him.



I never made such an assumption about you, i only asked you a question. It is you who is making the assumption about me.



No, not psychic at all (what, do you believe in all that hocus-pocus stuff??), just assuming you have invested in the stock market and bonds and such like, that is all.



Yes i do work hard. BTW, i'm am not 17years old either i am 22 years old. When you have a home, a job, good investments, no debts, spare cash and a loving partner and great friends i would say that is pretty set for life. I am not saying i am rich/loaded or any such thing, but would you agree with me that i'm not unjustified in saying i'm "set for life" or some such similar thing? You might find it difficult to comprehend Ustrader, but money isn't everything.



I just assumed that is all. Correct me if i am wrong though?



Thats nice.



I don't doubt the American government is quite charitable, but you still didn't answer my original question specifically.

Personally i focus on helping the environment (planting tree's and building/growing a wildlife reserve). IMHO our government helps the unemployed more than enough (more so than the hardworking in society). I care for my friends and family deeply, and regularly donate to various cancer research and child protection charities etc.



Not really. I only mentioned it because you had a completely incorrect image of me- had you not gone to your great lengths of creating a picture of me as someone who is "kissing my future goodbye" looking at a future of "fish and chips and convenience store jobs" etc only to then say how well off you were, i would not have mentioned a thing about my own life. Correcting someone's incorrect notions is not bragging. You on the other hand are.



Call yourself whatever you want pig (you said it!), but i am no capitalist pig like you. When you've risen from having nothing in life and have suffered and slaved, and then had the luck (or mis-luck as some might consider in my case) to rise above poverty and have the chance to make something of your life, if you have a heart you will want to help others who are in a similar situation as you were once in.



Where have i presumed to have done more good than anyone else Ustrader? Or is this another foundless accusation as usual old man?



My little capitalist pig do you deny then that the US economy is in a bad way right now then? All i have done here is state the facts. You seem rather defensive today. And i don't deny my own countries economy is not good (it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out!), but then again on the other hand i have never attempted to make out that my countries economy is better than yours or any such thing.
Ustrader, its really sad, you are just too desperate to talk down to me (when your accusations are all assumption and not well founded at all) and you still haven't answered my question (being "concerned" for your fellow man is not the same as actually doing something to help him).

Anyways, more breaking news on the situation ;

US markets wary over rescue deal;

"US shares have fallen sharply with investors cautious over whether the House of Representatives will back the revised bank rescue plan.

The House is due to discuss the scheme later, with a vote expected on Friday. The bill successfully passed through the US Senate on Wednesday.

On Wall Street, the Dow Jones index was down 263 points or 2.4% at 10,571, a slide dragging European shares lower.

The falls came as France said it would host a summit on the financial crisis.

The UK's FTSE 100 closed was down 1.8% to 4,870.3 points while Germany's Dax index shed 2.5% and France's Cac 40 lost 2.3%.

Sentiment was further hit by glum economic data - showing that the number of people filing for new unemployment benefit claims rose to a seven-year high, while factory orders had seen a steeper-than-expected drop in August.;"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7647662.stm


"US presidential hopefuls John McCain and Barack Obama, who both returned from the campaign trail for last night's Senate debate, voted in favour of the rescue plan.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid, a Democrat, said he was happy with the result and praised both presidential candidates for voting.

"I think it shows that when we work together we can accomplish good things," he said."

Its very nice people are getting their acts together now and working together for the greater good . Aric Au (like a lot of other people across the world) still has very well-founded concerns though- its far too early to be properly celebrating yet, and the markets reflect this.

What great profits of this year are those Tokis? I have been out of the stock market since last November. However I have grown my business by over 50% working 10 hours a day seven days a week. I am working my @ss off and you expect me to help those that are content to set on their @ss and take hand outs? Sorry, little girl, the money I make is mine.

However if it make you feel any better we do donate to a REPUTABLE charity every year up to the IRS limits.

TaTa Sweetie..........................

The world according to toky, Love this-

but Toky hates welfare, but as a good capitalist market wise wiz kid, now set for life, at the tender, all knowing age, of 22, now that is congruent logic darling, congruent indeed.



I am sorry toky, you are obviously the victim, always someone saying bad things about you, never you doing that.

Always someone else fault or flaw, never yours.

Always someone else accusing and assuming things erroneously about you, never you doing likewise.

Always, in nut shell using that hyperbolic hubris saying it is someone else you disagree with crap that stinks, but never you own.

I understand, it must have been extremely difficult working so hard in difficult challenges from being north through the tender of 22 to being set for life making all that money in the markets, whose sole purpose is to make one person money and no one else.



Since you showed me yours kinda disjoinedly in its logic, I will show you mine:

Since Oct 1 1980, operated with partners a factory in Lampun Thailand, employed on average about 300 Thai workers year around selling small products to airlines. Sold the business to some French and German Euro Trash in 2004, they went out business in 16 months.

We I left Thailand in 2004, I left behind two houses and some seed money as I had learned from some Indian I met in New Delhi about Micro Loans. Through my partners we do that in Northern Thailand on a small scale.

The good news about Micro loans is that only about 3% default, the bad news is that only about 3 % succeed. My best guess is I get about 3 % ROI, as I do not care about that money, except to keep on seeding small farmers and or family or community business people especially the hmong from the far north whom the government always leaves off the tea money lists.

I also invest in this place below which has Micro Loans and Habitat for Humanity Loans that pay a modest return. You should try it Toky fixed for life at 22.

Microlending

Your investment of $10,000.00 for a 5 year term could finance 176.67 microenterprises and create 258.17 jobs in Asia, and Middle East.

http://www.calvertfoundation.org/invest/invest_online.html


Click here for Obama Victim center

That is all!!

There are no certainties in life Ustrader, you should know that. I say i am set for life now, but that doesn't mean i believe nothing can go wrong. I wouldn't say i "hate welfare" (again, you make another assumption), i just don't agree with the current system (it allows itself to be abused so easily, with the result that there are a great deal of people on Benefits who are absolutely capable of working etc).



What are you on about old man? Rambling again?



Nope. I admit easily to assuming stuff, see post 11. Another false accusation by Ustrader (just stating a fact !).



No not really- if you think i accuse you of incorrect things, then prove me wrong on those things. Other than that, deal with it. Its not my fault that you trip up so often old man .



Again you assume and accuse a lot of unfounded things. I never claimed to make a great deal of money through or just through the markets. My sole purpose is not to make money solely just for myself, i am saving it up to put some towards my wildlife reserve project.



Thats very nice of you. There we go, not so hard to answer a simple question now is it?

There we go (taken from the fed thread, your post was directed towards grizzly);



I made a mistake in saying you had made the profits this year, but that doesn't detract from the fact that you are bragging a great deal.



Just wondering...But if you work 10hours a day 7 days a week then how do you find so much time to come on here every day??

Of course your money is yours- and its actually quite nice you donate to charity.

More breaking news;

House backs $700bn bail-out plan;

"The US House of Representatives has voted by 263-171 in favour of a $700bn (£380bn) plan to rescue the US financial sector.

The House vote was the second in a week, following its shock rejection of an earlier version on Monday.

The package is aimed at buying up the bad debts of failing institutions on Wall Street.

The House adopted the new version after the Senate added about $100bn in new tax breaks to win Republican votes.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average had been buoyant ahead of the vote and remains more than 200 points up on the day.";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7651060.stm


Looks like everyone is back to agreeing with each other again, lets hope there isn't going to be any more time wasted.

House technical error, bailout plan put on hold, revote needed.

The Pit is R&R for me. You haven't noticed that I spend maybe an hour here in the evening 3 or 4 times a week. Do the math, Tokis. They do teach you math in GB don't they.

Right...... .

Hmm you just seem to be on here all the time, thats all.



Wow you really don't know a lot about the world outside America do you ? Lets not get into the whole maths/spelling/grammar etc nitpicking, remember it was you who said you were the dumb old f*ck who didn't know sh*t, and how i had to teach you grammar etc .